Why so much hate on Angel?

[Mrs Gordo]

Actually...:
-Angel/Angelus
-Giles/Ripper
-Willow/VampWillow
-Xander/Vamp Xander
-Cordy/Evil Cordy
-Buffy/Faith!Buffy/First!Buffy...

Angel/Angelus is of course the most extreme example though.

And I guess I think of Willow/Vamp Willow, Giles/Ripper, Xander/Vamp Xander as one shots. Whereas Angelus was a long standing character for multiple episodes over a number of seasons. Evil Cordy/First Buffy are certainly on par (but I don't think CC did well in her evil Cordy role... ). I also think that Faith!Buffy was phenomenal but it was shorter lived. But pretty impressive!

 

[Fool for Buffy]

And I guess I think of Willow/Vamp Willow, Giles/Ripper, Xander/Vamp Xander as one shots. Whereas Angelus was a long standing character for multiple episodes over a number of seasons. Evil Cordy/First Buffy are certainly on par (but I don't think CC did well in her evil Cordy role... ). I also think that Faith!Buffy was phenomenal but it was shorter lived. But pretty impressive!

Amy had 8 episodes as Illyria and did a phenomenal job as well imo. I think she was the best at playing multiple characters.

 

[EarthLogic]

And I guess I think of Willow/Vamp Willow, Giles/Ripper, Xander/Vamp Xander as one shots. Whereas Angelus was a long standing character for multiple episodes over a number of seasons. Evil Cordy/First Buffy are certainly on par (but I don't think CC did well in her evil Cordy role... ). I also think that Faith!Buffy was phenomenal but it was shorter lived. But pretty impressive!

Yeah Angelus had an extended run. CC was pretty dire. I loved Faith!Buffy and actually Eliza also did a great job as Buffy!Faith. I don't know if she gets enough credit for that.

@Fool for Buffy - YES! ILLYRIA!

 

[Evil Seal]

but I don't think CC did well in her evil Cordy role...

I actually like CC's performance but the arc was really badly executed

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Amy had 8 episodes as Illyria and did a phenomenal job as well imo. I think she was the best at playing multiple characters.

I agree with you. Amy Acker is a phenomenal actress.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I agree with you. Amy Acker is a phenomenal actress.

Probably the best in Buffyverse. I love her so much.

 

[Priceless]

I thought SMG was fantastic as Buffy, the Buffybot, Faith and The First. She played everything so differently but was never ott.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Well, I know who I think is the most versatile. Not only did she have three clearly separate alter egos, but her main personality was emerging rather than stable.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Angel didn't invent that "strong, silent type". There's tons of characters like that out there, and I love many of them. Just recently, I watched 'The Punisher' Netflix show, which has a very quiet, broody protagonist, and I loved it. And I grew up on characters like Batman, which invented the archetype that Angel falls into.

I was thinking about this, and while I haven't watched The Punisher, I have watched Daredevil Season2. I realize this makes me like those annoying people who have opinions on Angel when they have never seen his show, but I love The Punisher's character and based on how he is presented on DDs2, he is less broody and more angry/a giant ball of unrestrained fury. There is a stark difference (which admittedly may change when I get to his show). Frank Castle has a great deal of baggage as well but he seems to channel it with violence and anger rather than any type of quiet brooding reflection/sadness.

I think Angel's character is quieter and closer to that of Matt Murdock's character. He lives in the morally ambiguous grey areas. Matt seems to carry a great deal of guilt around due to his days with Elektra & Stick. There are so many parallels between Angel and DD's character. Elektra/Darla, The desire to help people at all odds at the expense of yourself, the push and pull of having friends/family and alienating them for the mission, the feeling of hopelessness that comes with the daily fight, his desire to redeem (Punisher and Elektra), troubled relationship with father figure, Catholic guilt connections, etc.
 
@EarthLogic - so I argued that point with my husband who told me that DD's arc existed in the comics before Angel. But I think that much of the character stuff on the show feels so Angel and the fact that Steven/Drew are there its hard to believe none of that is coincidence. But I don't read DD comics so I could not argue my point effectively lol.

 

[EarthLogic]

@EarthLogic - so I argued that point with my husband who told me that DD's arc existed in the comics before Angel. But I think that much of the character stuff on the show feels so Angel and the fact that Steven/Drew are there its hard to believe none of that is coincidence. But I don't read DD comics so I could not argue my point effectively lol.

I've only watched the first episode - need to get back to it when I restart my Netflix - but honestly the reason I checked it out was because of the ME association. I gave Spartacus: Blood and Sand a go too because of DeKnight but that one I just couldn't stomach.

 

[TriBel]

Characters like Spike and Angelus are easy because they are so flashy. What you see is what you get, everything is on the surface because they let you know who they are constantly

I disagree - totally different structures: Spike alludes to something mobius and the difficulty is locating the twist; Angelus can't be seen in isolation from Angel or Liam - there's a dialogue between them.

That aside, to address the question, the list of people I hate includes Hitler, Pol Pot and Attila the Hun. The list of people I love includes my parents, siblings, sons and a few close friends. Very occasionally some one will slip from the love list to the hate list but only momentarily - I love them enough to push them back. What I don't do is waste my energies loving or hating fictional characters. I try to understand them (a time-sink in itself) and I don't understand what there is to "hate" about Angel.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I don't think I'm misinterpreting his character, I am simply interpreting it differently 🙂

Angel is written to be dark, brooding and mysterious, a classic trope for a leading man. But I don't think DB can play that role with any authenticity (at least not early on) His acting style just isn't nuanced enough. He needs to show intensity without being intense, it's an art.

He's so much better as playing Angelus, the larger than life character, and although his line delivery is pretty melodramatic in that role, it's more believable for that character.

Angels face looks like it does because DB doesn't understand that acting is about listening to the other person and reacting to what they are saying. His face isn't mobile enough to convey feeling, DB needs language to convey emotion, at least early in the show, later on he gets better with his reactions, thought he always seems a tiny bit wooden.

If a character like Angel is put into a melodramatic situation, he should calm the situation down, he should be broodng, quiet, restrained, as befitting a 240 year old vamp who is intensely guilt ridden. The action and intensity should lessen, but what happens in these scenes is DB just goes for it, he forgets Angels character and raises his voice, delivers his lines so dramatically. They are usually scenes with him and SMG and she's always emotional and high-octane, and Angel should be a calming influence but instead he behaves like a boy having a spat with his gf. Now this could be DB or it could be the directions he's given, or a combination. Anyways, just my pov 🙂

I guess maybe you just don't like his acting.

I enjoy DB's acting. I actually like his acting more on Buffy and Angel than on Bones (where he is basically playing himself).

He is very restrained in a lot of conversations with Buffy. Sure, sometimes he got angry like in Sanctuary where he raised his voice, but it felt very appropriate in that moment.
Can you give some examples of him being too loud and dramatic with Buffy?

I feel like I could give tons of examples of his reserved nature. Like in The Prom, when Buffy is all upset and says "I want my life to be with you." Angel says "I don't." in a very calm and reserved tone for a very emotional situation, and he is also saying something he does not fully believe.

IWRY: That entire last scene when Buffy is hysterically upset, Angel stays very calm to try to make her understand, calm her down, and comfort her all at once while he is very upset himself.

The name of the episode is escaping me, but Buffy is feeling very insecure about Angel after he had to kiss Faith to trick her into getting information. And Angel says in a very calm manner "In 243 years, I've loved exactly one person."

I know there is more, but these are the ones off the top of my head.

 

[Priceless]

I guess maybe you just don't like his acting.

I enjoy DB's acting. I actually like his acting more on Buffy and Angel than on Bones (where he is basically playing himself).

He is very restrained in a lot of conversations with Buffy. Sure, sometimes he got angry like in Sanctuary where he raised his voice, but it felt very appropriate in that moment.
Can you give some examples of him being too loud and dramatic with Buffy?

I feel like I could give tons of examples of his reserved nature. Like in The Prom, when Buffy is all upset and says "I want my life to be with you." Angel says "I don't." in a very calm and reserved tone for a very emotional situation, and he is also saying something he does not fully believe.

IWRY: That entire last scene when Buffy is hysterically upset, Angel stays very calm to try to make her understand, calm her down, and comfort her all at once while he is very upset himself.

The name of the episode is escaping me, but Buffy is feeling very insecure about Angel after he had to kiss Faith to trick her into getting information. And Angel says in a very calm manner "In 243 years, I've loved exactly one person."

I know there is more, but these are the ones off the top of my head.

I though he was improved on his own show, perhaps because he didn't have to carry the romantic melodrama and could be the brooding vamp he was intended to be instead of the romantic leading man. It always felt to me that DB couldn't play both convincingly (I've never seen DB in anything else, I didn't watch Bones)

The scene that comes to mind most (sorry can't remember the ep) is in the graveyard, I think it's when Buffy talks about wanting to die when he kisses her. There's also the scene in the sewer where they are breaking up. The scene just before he's shot by Faith's arrow. I'd have to re-watch the whole first three seasons to pick out all the ott drama 🙂

I think that's why the bangel scene in the Zeppo is funny, because it's Xander's image of bangel and it rings so true. The same when Wes and Cordy are role-playing bangel. Those scenes work for the audience because we know Angel and Buffy are an overly dramatic couple and their scenes are always angsty, exaggerated and over done.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

The name of the episode is escaping me, but Buffy is feeling very insecure about Angel after he had to kiss Faith to trick her into getting information. And Angel says in a very calm manner "In 243 years, I've loved exactly one person."

That's Earshot.

Many examples of how Buffy gets worked up and Angel is a good counter balance because he remains calm and even keeled. Angel (in her room re diary), Ted, The Zeppo, IWRY (sewer talk).

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't think Boreanaz is that good of an actor, but most of the actors on the show weren't that good. Alyson Hannigan is a horrible actor- she's good for her niche, and that's about it. The same can be said for Boreanaz. It just depends on what type of one-note actor you favor, because honestly, with few exceptions that is all that are in the show. Some of them aren't even acting merely playing themselves- Carpenter, McNab spring to mind.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Anything outside of CC's bitchy/funny cordelia's wheelhouse was a wreck for me. When she tried to play nice, dramatic or in love I was completely taken out of it. (but again blah blah blah subjective)

 

[BuffyBot22]

I though he was improved on his own show, perhaps because he didn't have to carry the romantic melodrama and could be the brooding vamp he was intended to be instead of the romantic leading man. It always felt to me that DB couldn't play both convincingly (I've never seen DB in anything else, I didn't watch Bones)

The scene that comes to mind most (sorry can't remember the ep) is in the graveyard, I think it's when Buffy talks about wanting to die when he kisses her. There's also the scene in the sewer where they are breaking up. The scene just before he's shot by Faith's arrow. I'd have to re-watch the whole first three seasons to pick out all the ott drama 🙂

I think that's why the bangel scene in the Zeppo is funny, because it's Xander's image of bangel and it rings so true. The same when Wes and Cordy are role-playing bangel. Those scenes work for the audience because we know Angel and Buffy are an overly dramatic couple and their scenes are always angsty, exaggerated and over done.

I think it's obvious that we have very different tastes when it comes to DB's acting and the melodrama on the show. I don't find him overwhelmingly great in s1 of BtVS, but I think a lot of that had to do with the writers not really knowing what direction they wanted to take his character in.
Yes, the when you kiss me I wanna die is a very melodramatic scene, but I still find it quite fitting with their relationship and the stance on vampires that the show had at that time.

I love when the show makes fun of how melodramatic Bangel can be. At least they are aware of it. I find it amusing even though I quite like most of their melodramatic scenes.
I on the other hand hate how the show does not recognize the melodrama in Spuffy. Spuffy is just as melodramatic as Bangel if not more.
 

I don't think Boreanaz is that good of an actor, but most of the actors on the show weren't that good. Alyson Hannigan is a horrible actor- she's good for her niche, and that's about it. The same can be said for Boreanaz. It just depends on what type of one-note actor you favor, because honestly, with few exceptions that is all that are in the show. Some of them aren't even acting merely playing themselves- Carpenter, McNab spring to mind.

Idk. I thought SMG was great as Buffy. Honestly, I had watched moves like Scooby doo and I know what you did last summer before watching Buffy and I had very low expectations for SMG, because her acting in those movie was pretty bad. I thought she was pretty phenomenal as Buffy.

I also think James Marsters, ASH, and Amy Acker are pretty great actors.

I think DB is much better than a lot of people give him credit for.

I also think AH was pretty good as Willow, but I can see that she does fall short in a lot of areas. Her range could def improve, but I think it's better than CC's.

CC is pretty one note. She plays superficial bitch fantastically, but she doesn't have much range.

 

[Priceless]

I on the other hand hate how the show does not recognize the melodrama in Spuffy. Spuffy is just as melodramatic as Bangel if not more.

I was with you right up to this point 😀 I think SMG ramps up the drama, it's Buffy's style, but I don't think Spike follows her . . . ok, sometimes they are melodramatic, but most of the time I think Spike tries to calm her down, he thinks he's a charmer bless him (and he is sometimes). Like the scene in the warehouse in Crush, Buffy is angry and scathing at Spike's declaration of love, and instead of him becoming overly dramatic, he gets calmer, quieter, uses humour and sexuality, tries to change the context . . .

SPIKE: It's not so unusual. (walks toward her) Two people ... in the workplace ... feelings develop.
BUFFY: No! No, no, feelings do not develop. No feelings.
SPIKE: You can't deny it. There's something between us.
BUFFY: Loathing. Disgust.
SPIKE: Heat. Desire.
BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha-that's just ... holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
BUFFY: Uhh!
SPIKE: But I'm not ... like that. Something's happening to me. I can't stop thinking about you.
BUFFY: Uhh. (turns away)
SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-
BUFFY: (turns back) You don't know what you mean! You don't know what feelings are!
SPIKE: (offended) I damn well do! I lie awake every night!
BUFFY: You sleep during the day!
SPIKE: Yeah, but - (through his teeth) You are missing the point. This is real here. I love-
BUFFY: Don't!

Their relationship is of course very different and as I say, although there is some melodrama, I don't think it's built on the intensity that bangel was.

 

[EarthLogic]

I don't think Boreanaz is that good of an actor, but most of the actors on the show weren't that good. Alyson Hannigan is a horrible actor- she's good for her niche, and that's about it. The same can be said for Boreanaz. It just depends on what type of one-note actor you favor, because honestly, with few exceptions that is all that are in the show. Some of them aren't even acting merely playing themselves- Carpenter, McNab spring to mind.

Not sure I'd go as far as saying Carpenter and McNab are just playing themselves, but then I don't know much about the actresses to know how closely their characters resemble themselves. Certainly their roles aren't the most demanding or varied; Harmony is of course one-note but she's supposed to be because that's what makes her funny. I think CC does quite well with Cordy's initial growth from bitchy-shallow to bitchy/snarky-compassionate but she struggled with more (like @dcai0830 said, 'in-love' Cordy was unconvincing, and Evil!Cordy was just dire). I think you're right about most of the actors not being 'that good', in the sense that they're not all-rounder 'Actors' with a capital A who can handle a lot of variation, but what's important is that they do fit the roles they're cast in, so being good all-round actors doesn't matter too much. I haven't seen HIMYM so I can't judge Alyson on that, but on Buffy she is Willow and I adore her, so there's no way I'd call her a terrible actress.

Of the female cast I think Sarah was wonderful and showed incredible range. I'd have to watch her performance more carefully but I think one weak thing might have been the mock-tears she sometimes had to do for the lighter episodes, which sometimes seems forced (I'm thinking of her 'shoulder-shrug' cry in 'Life Serial', which is sitcom-funny, but felt like SMG had to try hard for it). But again I adore her and she's brilliant 99% of the time so that's really minor. Eliza was just fantastic as Faith and I think Amy showed the most skill, especially in that transition from Fred to Illyria, which was just - wow!

Of the guys Tony, James and Alexis were the most technically accomplished and that's to be expected as they all come from theatre backgrounds and are classically trained. That comes through naturally in their performances which are always solid yet nuanced. Then of course as Spike's role was expanded it allowed James to bring in more variation and depth.

he didn't have to carry the romantic melodrama and could be the brooding vamp he was intended to be instead of the romantic leading man

The character was never meant to be the leading man. He was a supporting character in Buffy's story and I'd say his role overall was actually tertiary rather than secondary - the main supporting characters were Willow, Xander and Giles. Angel comes after that in the ranks, and only comes to the fore when it's necessary to Buffy's story.

There are scenes of obvious melodrama like the early S2 stuff (Some Assembly Required), but it's Buffy driving it and it fits at that point because she is a teenager after all so she's allowed to behave that way at least a little. But then there are more quiet down-to-earth moments like 'Earshot' which provide a nice counterpoint to the high drama. I actually like the moment in 'Graduation Day' when he does raise his voice a little during their argument. It brings in a bit more emotional variation and frankly it would be even more unrealistic to expect him to remain steady calm all the time. Just because he is by default reserved doesn't mean he can never get worked up.

I think it would be difficult to do their story without an degree of melodrama because it is written to be 'big, world-in-peril stuff'. The situations are extreme (gypsy curse, world getting sucked into hell - the circumstances are very life-or-death) and the characters have to respond to that in a heightened way for the story to hit a dramatic high note, even if they do mock/snark about it afterwards. That balance is part of the joy of the show. Melodrama actually drives the whole series- without it it just wouldn't work because it uses melodrama via larger-than-life fantasy and horror tropes to access a deeper psychological and emotional realism for its characters.

I think romantic melodrama instinctively elicits an eyeroll response because it is so tiresomely widespread in popular culture and fiction, but on BtVS it more often than not worked because of the nature of the show, which in addition to dealing with larger-than-life plots, was also very soapy.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Spuffy is just as melodramatic as Bangel if not more.

Abso-freaking-loutly. But generally I agree with what @EarthLogic says which is that melodrama is what drives the show and this genre. Joss has said its basically a supernatural soap opera. Spike is an incredibly dramatic character. There is a great intensity in so much of what he does. Bangel gets a bad rap for being melodrama but the truth is most of the pairings on the show are full of melodrama. They don't sell Spuffy to be a grand/great romance of star crossed lovers so Bangel gets made fun of in The Zeppo and in Fredless, that's the punch line is this greater than life love story, not necessarily their interactions which are no more or no less melodramatic than any other Buffy coupling out there. Even Riley and Buffy had hardcore melodrama (hello running after him to a helicopter!). None of them were just them hanging out on the couch watching movies. That might be Spuffy in the comics to some extent, though so I will give you that. Not much drama going on there. But it wasn't Spuffy on the show.