Why so much hate on Angel?

[Fool for Buffy]

I haven't seen much hate on Angel at all; in fact considering the large quantities of hate that goes toward Spike, Willow, and Xander, I'm actually shocked there isn't significantly more Angel hate. But that's not because I hate him at all; he's one of my favorite characters. I just have learned that people find lots of excuses to hate characters.
Personally I think the criticisms toward Angel are very legit, @WillowFromBuffy named a few good examples, but the good outweighs the bad so lopsidedly with Angel and most of the main characters for me that I have no ability to hate them. Every single character at some point or another performed a specific action that I hated but was able to receive forgiveness with very UNcontrived redemption arcs.

 

[Guy]

A lot of it is because of the actor - David Boreanaz just doesn't feel right for the role. He seems a lot more authentic as Angelus.

Also - I don't hate Angel as a (fictional) person, I hate him as a charcter. As a person, he isn't any worse than most of the Buffyverse characters. He's mostly a good guy. But as a character? As a character he just doesn't work for me. I don't root for him, I don't feel sad when he's sad, I don't feel happy when he's happy, etc... I just don't care about him. And a character that you don't care about is a bad character.

And finally - I always felt that Faith should have been the protagonist of the spin-off, instead of Angel. So, that kinda makes me resent him.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

David Boreanaz is neither as consistent nor as entertaining as most the actors on BtVS, but when he is good, he is really good.

 

[Antho]

I never had problem with his acting. I recognize that, in the beginning, his performance wasn’t very good, but it wasn’t bad at all. I guess I’m more indulgent with him because before BTVS he wasn’t an actor so it must have been difficult for him to learn everything on the moment. In any case I think that over the years he improved very well

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I guess I’m more indulgent with him because before BTVS he wasn’t an actor so it must have been difficult for him to learn everything on the moment

That's another misrepresentation that "fans" have spread over the years. Of course he was an actor! He wasn't a 'working' actor but he had been in movies and on TV before Buffy. Buffy was his big break but he certainly was an actor.

 

[Puppet]

He was certainly on Married... with Children before Buffy 😀

 

[Antho]

That's another misrepresentation that "fans" have spread over the years. Of course he was an actor! He wasn't a 'working' actor but he had been in movies and on TV before Buffy. Buffy was his big break but he certainly was an actor.

I know it. My point was it was at the beginning of his carrer so he doesn’t have many experience before Buffy. The more you practices the more you win experience and talent. I was saying that he hadn’t so much experience

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@Priceless There are some moments of understated brilliance as Angel, too. And some of the social fumbling as he is trying to be a friend to Cordelia feels quite genuine. Also, by S5, he had turned pissed-off cross-armed frown face into an art form.

 

[Mylie]

I agree he’s not the strongest actor but I’ve never had problems believing what he sold, except for the Cangel romantic stuff. I do really appreciate his acting though and he has moments where I am really impressed with him. I think part of it is that it’s not a flamboyant role and a lot of the work he does is restrained because that’s the character.

I have always appreciated how much he let’s his co-stars shine. Some might argue that it wasn’t necessarily intentional but I think he comes across as someone who isn’t too focused on his own acting and sees it as a partnership. I think it speaks volumes that his 3 romantic leads in the buffyverse absolutely loved working with him.

 

[HelloIAmHawt]

I haven't seen a lot of Angel-hate here, but I've certainly seen it around on the interwebz.

I, like some others in this thread am mixed on him--I do not like the Angel we work with on BtVS, but I do think he comes into his own on Angel. More specifically, I really just hate Angel and Buffy as a couple and I largely read this world from the perspective of our leading lady. The relationship is ridiculously informed and I don't care how young she is, the insta-love plot line is never going to work for me. These two star-crossed lovers hardly even know each other and BtVS Angel is really just reduced to a broody hot love interest for our main character. He's a caricature straight out of a teen mag, no depth, just kind of a bad-ass backstory. Sure, they flesh him out with that backstory and Angelus and all that, but I like my characters to be a bit more than "his personality is that he used to be evil and now he is broody and sneaks away from conversations when no one is looking."

Not sure if anyone on here listened to Dusted back when it existed, but they noted that his disappearing acts might have been less "broody mysterious" and more "awkward dead dude," which his quirky social techniques in Angel totally supports. Not that relevant to this, just always found the idea amusing.

Re: his acting--he's certainly not the strongest actor in the verse, but he is generally adequate and does a mean Angelus.

 

[EarthLogic]

He's definitely not the strongest actor but he's really not as terrible as people make him out to be. I think the fact that he started off very green does stick in the minds of some fans and it certainly doesn't help endear him much more to the viewer, especially when you compare it to the stronger initial performances given by the rest of the cast. JM being a case in point, who by contrast bursts onto the screen in full swagger and charm.

But on recent rewatches I have realised that it was also partly a case of an initial lack of direction and material to work with. Again taking Spike as an example, he was a far more fleshed out as a written character even before you add in James' performance. Angel was a last-minute addition to the show, so most of his early appearances are just him popping up and disappearing as they had to rework scripts just to include him. His 'mysteriousness' also means his motivation is about as clear as mud up until the mid-season reveal, which doesn't help. The Angelus-turn is usually cited as the moment DB got his acting chops but I think there two key leaps in his performance before that: the first is 'Angel', where his character finally gets a backstory and motivation. The other is 'What's My Line, Part 2' when the deliciously twisted Angel/Dru/Spike dynamic is established. Here he's vulnerable, confident, taunting and has great chemistry with the other two (and he's actually very good at being tortured/in pain. Those football injuries must have given him a good reference point). In both cases he gets given something meatier to work off - something which isn't primarily related to Buffy and you can see how it helps enormously. It's still not his best, but they're both definitely steps up.

A lot of it is because of the actor - David Boreanaz just doesn't feel right for the role. He seems a lot more authentic as Angelus.

I disagree. Angelus is definitely closer to his own personality in terms of the energy and glee he has, but I think he does grow into the Angel role (as it is written) by mid-season 2, and grows back into by mid S3 after they get past the unnecessary back-and-forth of the seasons earlier episodes. Then he really does come into his own on Angel. The character is written to be quiet and restrained and for some viewers that's just never going to be something they're interested in, which is ok. But I personally can appreciate that it's also quite tricky to make such a character appear interesting and I think he does a good job. I'm of the opinion DB gives a much better performance when pushed to play someone less like himself; I didn't like dork!Angel of mis AtS S3.

And finally - I always felt that Faith should have been the protagonist of the spin-off, instead of Angel. So, that kinda makes me resent him.

That's a bit harsh. It's not like it's his fault! It's not as if they wanted to make a spin-off and then chose him over Faith; Joss got the idea specifically after seeing his performance so the show was basically created for him. I think there was some talk about a 'Faith' or 'Spike' show after Buffy ended, but that never got much further, sadly. I think even a Faith miniseries would have been cool.
 

Not sure if anyone on here listened to Dusted back when it existed, but they noted that his disappearing acts might have been less "broody mysterious" and more "awkward dead dude,"

Oh it's definitely 'awkward dead dude'. I never thought of it as anything else (once I knew he was a vampire), even on first watch. It's like 'Oh God, social interaction with humans. Must run away now.' May have been the bloodlust thing too from being isolated for so long - all those heartbeats thumping away might have been too tempting. He says it himself anyway: 'I've got two modes with people: bite or avoid'.

 

[Mylie]

The being mad at DB for having a spinoff over Faith makes little sense when you think about how Eliza is the one who turned it down. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Eliza!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I hate Angel for what he did in Season 8. I can't get past that. It was unforgiveable.

 

[Antho]

I hate the producers for what they did to Angel in the comics. I can't forgive them for that. That's where Joss lost all the respect I did have for him (that and the thing with Charisma).

 

[Mrs Gordo]

The character is written to be quiet and restrained and for some viewers that's just never going to be something they're interested in, which is ok.

This thisity this this this.

 

[RomanticSoul]

The character is written to be quiet and restrained and for some viewers that's just never going to be something they're interested in, which is ok. But I personally can appreciate that it's also quite tricky to make such a character appear interesting and I think he does a good job.

It's damn hard to be that restrained and still having to get across what the character is thinking/feeling. It also means that as a viewer you have to work really hard to understand the character. Because on the surface he's 'boring' when really that's just how the character is set up (restrained). Characters like Spike and Angelus are easy because they are so flashy. What you see is what you get, everything is on the surface because they let you know who they are constantly. That gets boring really fast, at least for me. I don't like easy because it's cheap. I prefer characters I have to work for to really understand.

 

[Guy]

David Boreanaz DID get better over time, but it was incredibly slow. I didn't stop feeling that he's fake until the last season of the spin-off, and that's just way too late. He had moments of authenticity before that too, but they were surrounded by moments of "Oh, that's not Angel, that's just David trying to restrain himself". The moment that sticks in my mind is the end of 'City of', when Angel kicks Russel out of the window, and then calmly walks away like a badass - it's entirely clear to me that in that moment, there's only one thought going through David's mind: "OH MY GOD, DID YOU SEE HOW COOL THAT WAS?! AHHHHHH". Which is a logical thing for David to feel, but it's not supposed to be what Angel feels at that moment. Angel is supposed to feel unimpressed and just slightly satisfied.

But hey, acting is something that's hard to judge. I know some people think that SMG's performance is bad, and that's just completely unfathomable to me. So, it's hard to really discuss the quality of someone's acting in a meaningful way.

The character is written to be quiet and restrained and for some viewers that's just never going to be something they're interested in, which is ok. But I personally can appreciate that it's also quite tricky to make such a character appear interesting and I think he does a good job.

It's damn hard to be that restrained and still having to get across what the character is thinking/feeling. It also means that as a viewer you have to work really hard to understand the character. Because on the surface he's 'boring' when really that's just how the character is set up (restrained). Characters like Spike and Angelus are easy because they are so flashy. What you see is what you get, everything is on the surface because they let you know who they are constantly. That gets boring really fast, at least for me. I don't like easy because it's cheap. I prefer characters I have to work for to really understand.

Angel didn't invent that "strong, silent type". There's tons of characters like that out there, and I love many of them. Just recently, I watched 'The Punisher' Netflix show, which has a very quiet, broody protagonist, and I loved it. And I grew up on characters like Batman, which invented the archetype that Angel falls into.
And it's not about being easy to understand versus being hard to understand: Characters like Faith and Spike are very flashy people, yet that doesn't mean that "what you see is what you get" - because what they project outside is just a facade, and their real emotions are often the opposite of what they project on the surface. Angel isn't any harder to read than the flashy characters. In a way, he's even easier to understand.

So, no - it's not a problem with him being silent and broody. I just think he doesn't do the broody thing as well as other actors/characters do.

Good brooding:

tenor.com/view/punisher-thinking-daredevil-gif-5232504

Boring, fake brooding:

www.snarksquad.com/2013/06/angel-s02-e03-bitchfaces-and-improvised-weaponry.html

Boreanaz eventually gets it, though. It took him 8 years, but by his last season he learned how to brood effectively:

www.snarksquad.com/2014/05/angel-s05-e18-return-of-the-prodigal.html

That's a bit harsh. It's not like it's his fault! It's not as if they wanted to make a spin-off and then chose him over Faith; Joss got the idea specifically after seeing his performance so the show was basically created for him. I think there was some talk about a 'Faith' or 'Spike' show after Buffy ended, but that never got much further, sadly. I think even a Faith miniseries would have been cool.

The being mad at DB for having a spinoff over Faith makes little sense when you think about how Eliza is the one who turned it down. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Eliza!

Heh, of course it's not his fault! I'm not mad at him, I just sorta resent him. It's not logical, it's just something I feel.

new girl, zooey deschanel, jess, idk, emotions animated GIF | PopKey

I usually feel that resentment in episodes like 'Five by Five', in which Faith immediately takes over the screen in any scene she's in, while Angel sorta fades into the wallpaper.

 

[EarthLogic]

David Boreanaz DID get better over time, but it was incredibly slow. I didn't stop feeling that he's fake until the last season of the spin-off, and that's just way too late. He had moments of authenticity before that too, but they were surrounded by moments of "Oh, that's not Angel, that's just David trying to restrain himself". The moment that sticks in my mind is the end of 'City of', when Angel kicks Russel out of the window, and then calmly walks away like a badass - it's entirely clear to me that in that moment, there's only one thought going through David's mind: "OH MY GOD, DID YOU SEE HOW COOL THAT WAS?! AHHHHHH". Which is a logical thing for David to feel, but it's not supposed to be what Angel feels at that moment. Angel is supposed to feel unimpressed and just slightly satisfied.

Well it really must be a subjective thing then because I did not think that at all with City Of. I just watched that scene again and there's a smirk when he asks Winters if he can fly, and a tiny smirk after we see Winters combust as he falls. His face is blank after that. And I think Angel does secretly enjoy badass acts of heroism/violence, so a hint of smugness even there I feel would be entirely within character.

I think when his character really faltered was when they allowed DB to bring in more of his own lighter personality circa S3 (bad idea) and it was up and down after that depending on the tone of the episode, but I strongly disagree that authenticity only emerged in S5. A lot of the inauthenticity was to me a result of the material - e.g. the awful chatterbox Angelus of S4.

And it's not about being easy to understand versus being hard to understand: Characters like Faith and Spike are very flashy people, yet that doesn't mean that "what you see is what you get" - because what they project outside is just a facade, and their real emotions are often the opposite of what they project on the surface.

I agree.

But hey, acting is something that's hard to judge. I know some people think that SMG's performance is bad, and that's just completely unfathomable to me. So, it's hard to really discuss the quality of someone's acting in a meaningful way.

Yes I don't get the SMG hate either. I think she's a wonderful actress. The maturity and pathos of Buffy was largely a result of what she brought to the character.

Angel didn't invent that "strong, silent type". There's tons of characters like that out there, and I love many of them. Just recently, I watched 'The Punisher' Netflix show, which has a very quiet, broody protagonist, and I loved it. And I grew up on characters like Batman, which invented the archetype that Angel falls into.

I'm well aware of that. I grew up on Batman too, who is of course the King of Brood. I'm not saying DB is the Best Brooder Ever, or that Angel is the best written incarnation of that archetype, just that he gives a better performance than he's often given credit for. However, I don't have an extensive knowledge of how that archetype has been used throughout film and TV history so I couldn't possibly thoroughly evaluate where he rates on the scale (seriously - not being sarky here.)

I'm not sure the odd gif does much to support your argument because unless you're willing to upload dozens of them, it's difficult to properly convey the emotional fluctuations a character goes through over one episode or even one or two scenes. As it is I don't see any brood from that Punisher shot, more like blank staring (but like I said, difficult to judge the character based on a single gif). And in the one of Angel below that I don't think he is actually brooding in that scene. It's not his brood-face, which goes more like this:

(sorry for the giant image. Couldn't find a smaller one)

He seems to be responding to another character but I can't tell what episode that shot is from. So not the best example.

 

[Evil Seal]

Sometimes DB's acting might seem a bit awkward but I try to associate it with Angel's personality. It goes over very well if you assume Angel likes being a badass but thinks he has to hide it in order to look badass 😎

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Does anyone else really like the reunion between Angel and Cordelia is in City Of? It is not a "big" scene, but I find that it perfectly reflects what it is like to meet someone you're not sure where you stand with and do that awkward small talk thing.