Dark Willow and Redeemability

[Btvs fan]

The problem was the focus on Willow concerned she would lose control of her magic, as opposed to her feelings over the events of s6 - it's not just the killing of Warren (and her attempts to kill Jonathan & Tucker's brother) - she threatened to end Dawn, tried to kill Buffy, Anya and Giles and then - influenced by the magics she took from Giles - tried to end the world.

And this is a point I've discussed in the past - when you're a Scooby, essentially all is forgiven. There was a bit of concern from the gang in the episode Same Time, Same Place, but aside from that, was welcomed back into the fold.

When you're not part of the inner circle? Different story. Example: Faith still received side-eye from everyone even though she was good and on the path to redemption.

That wasn't even her either. She was just worried her friends might not like her.

Her mind raping (twice) of Tara was not even considered a subject or issue.
Also turning Magic into a Drug metaphor when only the season before it had been a Lesbian metaphor was a bad move too

 

[hoponlilmama]

That wasn't even her either. She was just worried her friends might not like her.

Exactly, and that was the issue.

And the gang expressed their concern that Willow was evil, which lasted for two seconds. Not a shred of anger - well, a tiny bit from Anya, and that's all.

Her mind raping (twice) of Tara was not even considered a subject or issue.

The issue of sexual assault/consent was never properly covered in the series (for multiple characters), unfortunately.

Also turning Magic into a Drug metaphor when only the season before it had been a Lesbian metaphor was a bad move too

Sigh. Well, we all know the writing took a dip and went off the rails in s6 and s7...

 

[Btvs fan]

Exactly, and that was the issue.

And the gang expressed their concern that Willow was evil, which lasted for two seconds. Not a shred of anger - well, a tiny bit from Anya, and that's all.


The issue of sexual assault/consent was never properly covered in the series (for multiple characters), unfortunately.


Sigh. Well, we all know the writing took a dip and went off the rails in s6 and s7...

But thats no excuse. All the writers with the exception of Drew Goddard (he was S7) worked in Season 5. Joss although not on set day to day still went through the script and story decisions. Its on him

 

[hoponlilmama]

But thats no excuse. All the writers with the exception of Drew Goddard (he was S7) worked in Season 5. Joss although not on set day to day still went through the script and story decisions. Its on him

Joss and the writers had a hand in it.
The series had a clear plan up until s5, then we saw what happened from that point onward.

 

[garfan]

Joss and the writers had a hand in it.
The series had a clear plan up until s5, then we saw what happened from that point onward.

I feel like we've heard to many could have beens to say their was a clear plan. There was a plan, but it was vague

 

[Btvs fan]

I feel like we've heard to many could have beens to say their was a clear plan. There was a plan, but it was vague

@hoponlilmama
From what writers like Fury etc have said is that Joss normally had an end point but nothing in how to get there in between. Case in point Season 3, he wanted to blow up the school and have Buffy lead the kids in the fight but Faith was originally going to kill herself and Mr Trick was originally going to kill the Mayor and take his place.

In fact Iv listened to an Interview with Harry Groener that for Graduation Day they didn't have a script on set. He said Joss would be in his Office writing out pages then handing them out on set to cast and crew.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I feel like we've heard to many could have beens to say their was a clear plan. There was a plan, but it was vague

@hoponlilmama
From what writers like Fury etc have said is that Joss normally had an end point but nothing in how to get there in between. Case in point Season 3, he wanted to blow up the school and have Buffy lead the kids in the fight but Faith was originally going to kill herself and Mr Trick was originally going to kill the Mayor and take his place.

In fact Iv listened to an Interview with Harry Groener that for Graduation Day they didn't have a script on set. He said Joss would be in his Office writing out pages then handing them out on set to cast and crew.

It's splitting hairs. Whether it was a plan, or a 'clear' plan - there was a general point A to point B in place up to season 5. It's certain they veered some from season to season as the writers put things together - examples like Angel leaving, Spike being kept on past s2, Spuffy because the writers listened to fans.

Things are more consistent s1 - s5. The last two is a different story.

 

[Btvs fan]

It's splitting hairs. Whether it was a plan, or a 'clear' plan - there was a general point A to point B in place up to season 5. It's certain they veered some from season to season as the writers put things together - examples like Angel leaving, Spike being kept on past s2, Spuffy because the writers listened to fans.

Things are more consistent s1 - s5. The last two is a different story.

I disagree. Having an end point is not being consistent.
The fact Joss was literally having to write script pages and hand them out on set should be an issue. Btw on rewatch of Graduation Day Part 1, I noticed that Xander and Cordelia essentially have the same conversation 3 times about the up coming Graduation Day and nothing new is said, its basically just filler. You could literally chop them out of the episode and not miss anything.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I disagree. Having an end point is not being consistent.
The fact Joss was literally having to write script pages and hand them out on set should be an issue. Btw on rewatch of Graduation Day Part 1, I noticed that Xander and Cordelia essentially have the same conversation 3 times about the up coming Graduation Day and nothing new is said, its basically just filler. You could literally chop them out of the episode and not miss anything.

Overall arcs and a start and end point to the series is consistent. As I said, things obviously had to change during the making of each season for various reasons, but there was an overall plan up until s5.

Anyway, this is getting off topic about Willow and redemption.

 

[Btvs fan]

Overall arcs and a start and end point to the series is consistent. As I said, things obviously had to change during the making of each season for various reasons, but there was an overall plan up until s5.

Anyway, this is getting off topic about Willow and redemption.

I wish they'd stuck to original Dark Willow, due to her own insecurities and lust for power to over compensation instead of Magic is drugs 😐

 

[NoShip]

When you're not part of the inner circle? Different story. Example: Faith still received side-eye from everyone even though she was good and on the path to redemption.

And Buffy tried to kill Anya.....

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

And Buffy tried to kill Anya.....

Right after she'd killed a fraternity. I'm thinking that is up there with killing Angel. Much as we care about Anya, as long as she is unrepentant and the people are dead, Buffy really has little choice but to treat her as an imminent threat. She was fulfilling wishes and doing it with deadly effect. Slayers can't allow wanton murder even if they care about the perpetrator.

I do understand that the woman wronged deserved actual justice. Even she was quite clear that mass murder wasn't her intent, however.

Faith after she came back was on a path of redemption. She did not deserve condemnation, though mistrust is probably to be expected. she hurt a lot of people.

 

[garfan]

I wish they'd stuck to original Dark Willow, due to her own insecurities and lust for power to over compensation instead of Magic is drugs 😐

I just do not buy the concept of Willow lusting for power. I think a believable magic obsessed Willow is ignoring the world studying magic that she's not going to do anything with, except find out if she's capable of doing it.

Basically she'd seem like she was doing the same stuff she was doing before meeting Buffy, but replacing computers with cauldrons

 

[ILLYRIAN]

What a load of ?????, I mean to say!
Slayers cannot allow wanton murder. W. T. Flippin heck?
Do I understand that to refer to Buffy's and Giles' attitude to Faith killing a person. A person who was (lets face it) was doing work for the demonic Mayor. The next way of looking at that was that Giles was quite aware of his slayer carrying on with the Vampire Angel, which was apparently okay in Buffy's eyes.
Later on Buffy was continually having sex with Spike (definitely not SLEEPING with him).

How many vampires did Faith have sex with?

They were chosen as Vampire Slayers by the Powers That Be, of the two who did the worst thing?
Faith killed an agent of Evil
Buffy had sex with two vampires.
To my way of thinking Faith comes of best.

Apparently Faith came back after she was on the path of redemption after she killed the Mayors (the snake demon) henchman.
Buffy never took the path of redemption, even though what she did was a whole lot worse.

Why did the Powers That Be never seem to do anything? I thought they were the God figure in the series.

And what about Dark Willow, what was Willow? She thought of herself as a Witch yet who in authority proclaimed her to be a witch, does a witch do witchcraft. At the outset Willow tried to perform spells which she often got wrong, why? Willow took to performing magic by thought. That is a completely different way of making (the impossible) magic happen. It stands to logic that a witch who performs magic just by thinking about it will get the spells wrong. Giles in all his so called wisdom did not know that.

In the most logical way of thinking about it, the writers were writing about a subject they were poorly informed about. Take The Vampire Diaries the writers kept doing magics wrong, they even said Warlocks were good witches, (hint>) what do the first three letters of Warlock spell?

Look at the writers in The Hammer House of Horror. They were far better than the writers BTVS or TVD why? Because they didn't try to use context they knew nothing about.

The books I got my initial knowledge about witches from various leather bound books the size that Giles handed to Buffy titled "Vampyres". Becoming friends with white witches, black witches, Satanists and Devil Worshippers helped increase my overall knowledge. When I say friends I mean friends, not people who explained their craft in detail. Just because a person chooses to follow a certain creed does not exempt them from being nice people.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Right after she'd killed a fraternity. I'm thinking that is up there with killing Angel. Much as we care about Anya, as long as she is unrepentant and the people are dead, Buffy really has little choice but to treat her as an imminent threat. She was fulfilling wishes and doing it with deadly effect. Slayers can't allow wanton murder even if they care about the perpetrator.

I do understand that the woman wronged deserved actual justice. Even she was quite clear that mass murder wasn't her intent, however.

Faith after she came back was on a path of redemption. She did not deserve condemnation, though mistrust is probably to be expected. she hurt a lot of people.

The point to be made was she dived right into 'I have to kill Anya' mode, when Buffy has shown hesitation - namely with people she's had sex with.

Whilst I see and understand your point of view, we do see Anya felt remorse for going ahead with that particular wish/request.

Yes, she killed Angel, but that came much later.

 

[Btvs fan]

The point to be made was she dived right into 'I have to kill Anya' mode, when Buffy has shown hesitation - namely with people she's had sex with.

Whilst I see and understand your point of view, we do see Anya felt remorse for going ahead with that particular wish/request.

Yes, she killed Angel, but that came much later.

The only time she felt remorse.
Despite being a human and souled being she talked happily about making a person combust and set fire to his village

 

[hoponlilmama]

@NotASlayer Whereas Spike showed no remorse, was actively killing people and Buffy still did nothing. Xander should have rammed the difference in her face.

Bingo.
Buffy even makes the point that Xander's feelings for Anya cloud his judgement. The irony of that statement coming from her is amusing.