Buffy coming back “wrong”

[silvermoon]

Buffy's actions in season 6 had a lot to do with the fact that Willow and the gang resurrected her out of heaven and the little horrifying fact of having to claw your way out of your own coffin. Something apparently only Spike picked up on . She didn't come back wrong, I take Tara's words about the molecular tan as the correct answer. Tara was indeed a very good friend to Buffy. Buffy was traumatized and looking at her life a lot differently. She wanted to feel just like she sang about and boinking Spike provided that release and escape. She wasn't part demon, she was having some really bad emotional aftershocks.

 

[garfan]

Okay, well the first is Satanic/Expy Satan, right? I mean, he seems far more interested in the ruination of individual souls than alien elder god with a different understanding of morality. Look at it this way, the First made a bargain with Andrew, serve me, sacrifice Jonathan, ye shall be as gods. (That's the thing he says!) Well, that's a deal with the Devil, right? The tears are his remorse, the rejection of the First, his works and his ways. If it wasn't a otherwise unremarkable season 7 episode, it would be a fairly good story.

We, are as gods!

yeah, that is not at all how I took the First. With it's presence being poison to the environment, and the fact it cons more than tempts; with Satan you generally get what you asked for in life, you're just screwed in the afterlife. The First basically tricked Andrew by posing as Warren and was never going to give him anything. So IMO the First is just stuck dealing on the individual level and would much rather slaughter everything

Post automatically merged: Jun 22, 2024

I agree. Buffy’s lack of empathy and mean treatment of her could definitely be cited as both OOC and another example of how she came back with less humanity/“wrong” or part demon.

I still stand by suicide attempts being the one thing she can't truck with

 

[RachM]

I still stand by suicide attempts being the one thing she can't truck with

But there's not really proof of this. I mean, you listed a couple of examples earlier, both of which were refuted, and unless you have another example, there's really no evidence of this, which begs the question of why you see it as so?

 

[garfan]

But there's not really proof of this. I mean, you listed a couple of examples earlier, both of which were refuted, and unless you have another example, there's really no evidence of this, which begs the question of why you see it as so?

how were they refuted?

you justified why she was harsh to them and said why she shouldn't have been harsh regarding the potentials. But despite the fact you can say she should have been gentler to them, she wasn't. She was as angry as she had been in previous situations where suicide was involved. So maybe it wasn't about or wasn't just about sacrificing the vampire cultists too, or because he was taking the easy way out. Maybe it was that she hates the thought of suicides

 

[RachM]

how were they refuted?

It was pointed out that in the cases you listed there were extra circumstances which were making Buffy act harsher in those circumstances, not out of a lack of empathy towards suicidal thoughts but because the situation called for it;

- Ford was trying to kill a dozen people to save himself
-She thought Jonathan was trying to commit mass murder not suicide
-Angel was trying to avoid the responsibility he had to the world to make amends and face his actions

Thus these examples were refuted.

you justified why she was harsh to them and said why she shouldn't have been harsh regarding the potentials. But despite the fact you can say she should have been gentler to them, she wasn't. She was as angry as she had been in previous situations where suicide was involved. So maybe it wasn't about or wasn't just about sacrificing the vampire cultists too, or because he was taking the easy way out. Maybe it was that she hates the thought of suicides

But where is your evidence that she "hates the thought of suicides"? There is none. And, as pointed out, the previous "suicide" situations were vastly different. But there is evidence that Buffy has shown empathy and compassion to others in dire situations and that's why this particular beat feels very OOC for her.

I mean, if you have evidence to support your headcanon, I'd love to hear it!

 

[garfan]

It was pointed out that in the cases you listed there were extra circumstances which were making Buffy act harsher in those circumstances, not out of a lack of empathy towards suicidal thoughts but because the situation called for it;

- Ford was trying to kill a dozen people to save himself
-She thought Jonathan was trying to commit mass murder not suicide
-Angel was trying to avoid the responsibility he had to the world to make amends and face his actions

Thus these examples were refuted.
But where is your evidence that she "hates the thought of suicides"? There is none. And, as pointed out, the previous "suicide" situations were vastly different. But there is evidence that Buffy has shown empathy and compassion to others in dire situations and that's why this particular beat feels very OOC for her.
I mean, if you have evidence to support your headcanon, I'd love to hear it!

because while you say the three situations are vastly different, her reactions to them are broadly the same. So...maybe to her they weren't all that different. Maybe it wasn't those extra circumstances making her act harsh, but the base of the situation. Like I actually used Jonathan as a counter example, becuaase she was nicer to him as a mass murderer than she was to the suicide attempts. Admittedly she didn't get hostile to him when she found out he was a suicide attempt but that could have been because her anti-mass murder speech had talked him down already and she still had a mass murderer to find

So, that is my evidence. Or at least the way I interpret things. Similar reactions, despite differences in the situations suggest it is the situations similarities driving her reactions, not their difference

 

[thetopher]

Remember how not angry Buffy got at Cassie after she thought that Cassie was going to kill herself in 'Help'? Remember how full of compassion and understanding she was?
Yeah she fought hard to save that kid and then callously calls Chloe a weak idiot.

Buffy was never callous with Ford or Angel or Jonathan, she wasn't cold with them, she was impassioned and invested. She cared.

 

[garfan]

Remember how not angry Buffy got at Cassie after she thought that Cassie was going to kill herself in 'Help'? Remember how full of compassion and understanding she was?
Yeah she fought hard to save that kid and then callously calls Chloe a weak idiot.

Buffy was never callous with Ford or Angel or Jonathan, she wasn't cold with them, she was impassioned and invested. She cared.

honestly, no I did not remember that Buffy thought Cassie was a potential suicide. And with Ford and Angel she didn't feel cold, I thought she felt hot, as in pissed off

 

[thetopher]

And with Ford and Angel she didn't feel cold, I thought she felt hot, as in pissed off

As in 'invested'. Compassion can come in many forms.

 

[RachM]

because while you say the three situations are vastly different, her reactions to them are broadly the same. So...maybe to her they weren't all that different. Maybe it wasn't those extra circumstances making her act harsh, but the base of the situation.

Okay, but the "base of the situation" in two of the three cases you keep leaning on are Buffy trying to stop mass murder. A) that requires hardness and B) it's not suicide-related, as you keep insisting.

Like I actually used Jonathan as a counter example, becuaase she was nicer to him as a mass murderer than she was to the suicide attempts. Admittedly she didn't get hostile to him when she found out he was a suicide attempt but that could have been because her anti-mass murder speech had talked him down already and she still had a mass murderer to find

I ... have no idea what you're trying to say here.

So, that is my evidence. Or at least the way I interpret things. Similar reactions, despite differences in the situations suggest it is the situations similarities driving her reactions, not their difference

But it's not evidence, it's you repeating your own interpretation based on incidents which others have already pointed out don't really support said interpretation. So your argument doesn't hold up.

honestly, no I did not remember that Buffy thought Cassie was a potential suicide. And with Ford and Angel she didn't feel cold, I thought she felt hot, as in pissed off

I've seen you do this before; claim ignorance of events when they go against your arguments. Not a great way to make your point.

Also, once again, Buffy's anger at Ford wasn't coming from him being suicidal, but from him planning to murder a dozen people to get what he wants.

With Angel, while she does show anger during the scene, she also shows empathy, grief, desperation and love. She is trying to stop someone she loves deeply from killing themselves and trying to help Angel face his responsibility to the world in the aftermath of what he did as Angelus. When she gets angry during the confrontation it's a result of passion.

Neither of these incidents are comparable at all to her harshly telling a group of young, terrified, grieving girls that their friend was "weak" and and an "idiot" for killing herself, and therefore it is this final response that feels OOC.

 

[garfan]

Okay, but the "base of the situation" in two of the three cases you keep leaning on are Buffy trying to stop mass murder. A) that requires hardness and B) it's not suicide-related, as you keep insisting.


I ... have no idea what you're trying to say here.

that Buffy didn't have time to be angry by the time she realized Jonathan was trying to kill himself

But it's not evidence, it's you repeating your own interpretation based on incidents which others have already pointed out don't really support said interpretation. So your argument doesn't hold up.


I've seen you do this before; claim ignorance of events when they go against your arguments. Not a great way to make your point.

you know what if you're going to be making accusations why don't we put each other on ignore and stop this

Also, once again, Buffy's anger at Ford wasn't coming from him being suicidal, but from him planning to murder a dozen people to get what he wants.

the anger in "and your life is nothing" has nothing to do with the other people

When she gets angry during the confrontation it's a result of passion.

So, anger is anger no matter what other feelings triggered it

 

[RachM]

that Buffy didn't have time to be angry by the time she realized Jonathan was trying to kill himself

So therefore she didn't get angry and/or triggered by someone being suicidal, like you keep claiming.

you know what if you're going to be making accusations why don't we put each other on ignore and stop this

It wasn't an accusation, it was an observation that the way you are making arguments and avoiding acknowledging evidence others are offering up weakens your overall point, but I am happy for you to put me on Ignore.

the anger in "and your life is nothing" has nothing to do with the other people

Again, it's anger coming from passion not from being triggered by suicide. I'm not trying to argue that Buffy doesn't get angry, just that she doesn't have a trigger or specific anger surrounding suicide.

So, anger is anger no matter what other feelings triggered it

But your argument is that suicide was triggering it in Buffy and I am arguing that it doesn't and therefore her reaction and language used regarding Chloe's suicide feels OOC.

 

[garfan]

Again, it's anger coming from passion not from being triggered by suicide. I'm not trying to argue that Buffy doesn't get angry, just that she doesn't have a trigger or specific anger surrounding suicide.

but like my point is the passion is triggered by the suicide attempt. One is a feeling, the other is an action

 

[thetopher]

But Buffy specifically tells Ford that she feels sorry for him and his predicament in 'Lie To Me' and she can still hold him accountable whilst she has demonstrable compassion for him.

Buffy in S7 'Get It Done' is missing like, half of that equation; there is anger, there is accountability, but there is no sympathy or understanding for Chloe, the cause of her death or indeed for anyone else in that scene. She unleashes on everyone.
Like Anya said it was kind of a snotty & superior 'everyone sucks but me' speech, a million miles away from the nuance Buffy previously showed towards Jonathan in 'Earshot' or Angel in 'Amends'.

Not for nothing but Buffy also happens to be completely wrong in that speech. Imagine you're a potential fleeing for your life to Buffy for protection but instead you get locked in a crypt with a live vampire or some fussy English guy is taking you into the desert so The Slayer can look after her pet vampire's 'chip' or date the hot Principal.
How on earth is Buffy 'carrying' anyone at this point?

 

[garfan]

But Buffy specifically tells Ford that she feels sorry for him and his predicament in 'Lie To Me' and she can still hold him accountable whilst she has demonstrable compassion for him.

Buffy in S7 'Get It Done' is missing like, half of that equation; there is anger, there is accountability, but there is no sympathy or understanding for Chloe, the cause of her death or indeed for anyone else in that scene. She unleashes on everyone.

I've always felt like the sympathy cause Chloe actually did it. Like if they walked in on her hanging there but still alive and Buffy had pulled her down there's have been sympathy

Like Buffy may have been talking to the other potentials but it was all about Chloe who had made herself unable to be there and listen.

Like Anya said it was kind of a snotty & superior 'everyone sucks but me' speech, a million miles away from the nuance Buffy previously showed towards Jonathan in 'Earshot' or Angel in 'Amends'.

My general agreement might be why I have so little sympathy for their case. We're seven seasons in before we see any fighters who don't want to be fighters at all. It's to late for me to respect that perspective

Not for nothing but Buffy also happens to be completely wrong in that speech. Imagine you're a potential fleeing for your life to Buffy for protection but instead you get locked in a crypt with a live vampire or some fussy English guy is taking you into the desert so The Slayer can look after her pet vampire's 'chip' or date the hot Principal.
How on earth is Buffy 'carrying' anyone at this point?ha

Buffy had no skills that would do anything for the desert trip and the crypt, weren't they slacking off with training before that? Of course the question of whether they were there for protection or training was theoretically an open one, but the way the show went about things it was pretty clear it was supposed to be training

also, it's her house. She's feeding them, sheltering them, I think we're supposed to think she's the one who set up the training even if not doing it personally, she's the one going into battle and she's the one who killed the previous big threat after being beaten down by it.

 

[RachM]

but like my point is the passion is triggered by the suicide attempt. One is a feeling, the other is an action

But you have no proof of this! It's just your own personal interpretation, which is fine, but nullifies your argument.

I'm sorry, we keep going around in circles, it's getting ridiculous. You are obviously allowed to have your own headcanons, but this insistence that it's rooted in some sort of canonical evidence, which has clearly been refuted, is tiring.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Wow, thank you to all who have responded to this thread, so many great responses! I’ve read everyone’s messages but have not had time to respond to all yet.

Also: almost done with my rewatch, on “Selfless” now - could Buffy’s complete willingness without hesitation to kill Anya also be an example of her OOC behavior post resurrection and coming back “wrong”/damaged/different/traumatized?

 

[garfan]

But you have no proof of this! It's just your own personal interpretation, which is fine, but nullifies your argument.

I'm sorry, we keep going around in circles, it's getting ridiculous. You are obviously allowed to have your own headcanons, but this insistence that it's rooted in some sort of canonical evidence, which has clearly been refuted, is tiring.

there is no canonical evidence for anything, so all anyone has is headcanons. The show likely doesn't even want it to be considered OOC. At least my way doesn't require something mystical and unaddressed

 

[RachM]

there is no canonical evidence for anything, so all anyone has is headcanons.

Um .... what? So, to you, nothing on the show is concrete? Nothing is for sure, even everything we see? That makes zero sense. Why even watch a series if you're just going to ignore everything onscreen and make up your own version? I'm sorry, but this is all very confusing and, again, makes it impossible to have a reasonable debate with you.

The show likely doesn't even want it to be considered OOC.

Of course the show doesn't want it to be considered OOC! That's the whole point of this discussion! That the writing of Buffy in certain parts of Season 7 doesn't make sense and doesn't match with what we know of her from previous seasons, because the writing quality either dipped or was OOC. Why would a show want the writing to be considered OOC?

At least my way doesn't require something mystical and unaddressed

Again ... what????? I have no idea what you are even trying to say here.

 

[thetopher]

I've always felt like the sympathy cause Chloe actually did it. Like if they walked in on her hanging there but still alive and Buffy had pulled her down there's have been sympathy

Yeah, I don't buy that sympathy ends when somebody dies. If you don't care about somebody dying its a good indicator that you didn't care about them when they were alive to begin with.
Nobody just switches off their emotions at the point of death; also people don't go the opposite way and angrily castigate a scared teenager (one of the people Buffy later calls a child) for giving into fear.
It's the opposite of compassion, not the end of it.

My general agreement might be why I have so little sympathy for their case. We're seven seasons in before we see any fighters who don't want to be fighters at all.

But you're forgetting that it wasn't just about the Potentials, it was about everyone else, so it wasn't about fighting or wanting to fight it was about 'using the power you have' which Buffy doesn't even end up doing in the end....

Buffy had no skills that would do anything for the desert trip and the crypt

She had been to the desert (unlike Giles) and had the knowledge/knew what to expect and how to prepare the girls for contact with some mythical primal spirit. Maybe her time would've been better spend investing in/coaching the girls on what to expect.

And the crypt? You missed the point; the girl got locking in with a vampire without warning, killed it/them and were super jazzed about it afterwards. They were trying.

weren't they slacking off with training before that?

Nope, see above; they were trying.

Of course the question of whether they were there for protection or training was theoretically an open one, but the way the show went about things it was pretty clear it was supposed to be training

Again., Buffy's speech wasn't aimed at just the Potentials.

also, it's her house. She's feeding them, sheltering them

Well, big whoop. Buffy is protecting innocents from being slaughtered by ultimate evil. Isn't that, like, her job? Isn't that the thing all her friends are also doing for free? Isn't Xander also putting up girls in his place that never gets brought up?
Pretty low bar; 'I'm paying the rent so you, all of you, try as hard as me even though I'm fawning over my vampire and dating the hot mysterious principal! Be more like me.'