Buffy coming back “wrong”

[garfan]

The army's size makes it a military problem and military problems have military solutions. Surrounding the school with massed machine guns and armour or simply killing the Turok-Han as they emerged from the Hellmouth, which they could only do a few at a time, would have worked. If only Buffy knew someone in the US military she could call...

flame throwers maybe. I wouldn't trust machine guns to work easily. Would the military get there in time? How many men would Riley be able to gather?

I think Kennedy had potential. No pun intended! But she needed good leadership to direct that potential.

By this point, Xander has more leadership experience than any of the Scoobies and has spent over six years fighting creatures that are stronger and tougher than him and not dying. Not even Buffy can claim the last. He has more fighting experience than many military veterans. Anya has a couple of years of similar experience.

Xander had never trained anyone to fight. Nothing suggests he really knows how to fight. Same it true for Anya.

 

[NotASlayer]

flame throwers maybe. I wouldn't trust machine guns to work easily. Would the military get there in time? How many men would Riley be able to gather?

I wonder if the military has wooden ammo? Being shot at with armour piercing bullets would certainly slow the Turok-Han down. Then you can kill them with pointy sticks. But heavy ordnance would make a difference. And blowing something's head off works as decapitation.

It seemed to need the Scoobies opening the Hellmouth - again - for the Turok-Han to get out. It wasn't as if the vamps were standing in an orderly line waiting for the Hellmouth to open; they did not even notice to start with So, they may well have had as much time as was needed.

Xander had never trained anyone to fight. Nothing suggests he really knows how to fight. Same it true for Anya.

The fighting demons and vampires as a vanilla human with no powers and not dying in the process? That suggests he knows how to fight. He certainly knows how to survive, which is a valuable skill to pass on, and fights with things like rocket launchers and wrecking balls, which is useful out of the box thinking.

Kennedy had never trained anyone how to fight either, and moreover had practically zero experience in fighting and certainly practically none in battling vampires and demons.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

There's no military solution, it's a magical solution, and it's worked for over 10,000 years. You need to lock up the portal, dematerialize the seal, and build a church on top of it.

I agree, it's clear as mud, but it appears that the initial sacrifices were needed to "break" the seal, and that allowed dark energies into the vicinity. That made it easier to open in the future, and probably produced other rifts in the area. Remember, we say portals, but in truth, dimensional barriers are artificial, leave one open long enough, and the two dimensions will merge.

 

[NotASlayer]

I am not sure they had time to build a church, given the rather imminent military threat of an army. I guess it depends on how fast Xander could build things. 🙂

 

[hoponlilmama]

No one is suggesting that - no one is harder on Buffy than herself - what we are arguing is that having been through depression and suicidal ideation herself, it stands to reason that Buffy would be empathetic to someone else experiencing those same things. And Buffy has always been an empathetic character, so it's odd that she doesn't display any empathy in this situation.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[garfan]

It seemed to need the Scoobies opening the Hellmouth - again - for the Turok-Han to get out. It wasn't as if the vamps were standing in an orderly line waiting for the Hellmouth to open; they did not even notice to start with So, they may well have had as much time as was needed.

The First could apparently also open it at this point. That's what imposes a time concern

The fighting demons and vampires as a vanilla human with no powers and not dying in the process? That suggests he knows how to fight. He certainly knows how to survive, which is a valuable skill to pass on, and fights with things like rocket launchers and wrecking balls, which is useful out of the box thinking

Out of the box thinking can be hard to teach and does nothing for their physical conditioning.

we have never seen Xander do much more in the way of fighting besides punching and tackling.

Also his surviving is borderline miraculous at times. He laid unconscious on a Sunnydale street and nothing grabbed him. He suffered only minor injuries from a weapon that would go on to hurt a god. He fought a vampire one on one and made it into a slap fight

Kennedy had never trained anyone how to fight either, and moreover had practically zero experience in fighting and certainly practically none in battling vampires and demons.

She knew how her Watcher had taught her and could pass that on. Xander didn't even have that

 

[NotASlayer]

The First could apparently also open it at this point. That's what imposes a time concern

This, as @AlphaFoxtrot mentioned, is really not made clear. And it is clear that the First could not open it at will. Otherwise, there would have been no time constraint, because they would have already been buried in Ubervamps.

Out of the box thinking can be hard to teach and does nothing for their physical conditioning.

we have never seen Xander do much more in the way of fighting besides punching and tackling.

Also his surviving is borderline miraculous at times. He laid unconscious on a Sunnydale street and nothing grabbed him. He suffered only minor injuries from a weapon that would go on to hurt a god. He fought a vampire one on one and made it into a slap fight

He still survived (although yes, minimal damage from Olaf's Hammer was a bit odd, especially as he was hit in the head with it).

She knew how her Watcher had taught her and could pass that on. Xander didn't even have that

He has experience. I am pretty sure that when armies teach recruits, they do not have other brand new, non-combat experienced recruits doing the training, but the people with experience.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Eh, newly turned female vampires don't seem to that strong. If I remember World of Darkness correctly, they put all their stat points into seduction.

 

[garfan]

This, as @AlphaFoxtrot mentioned, is really not made clear. And it is clear that the First could not open it at will. Otherwise, there would have been no time constraint, because they would have already been buried in Ubervamps.

I do think it had something to do with everyone leaving tow

He still survived (although yes, minimal damage from Olaf's Hammer was a bit odd, especially as he was hit in the head with it).

Yes but survival is not fighting

He has experience. I am pretty sure that when armies teach recruits, they do not have other brand new, non-combat experienced recruits doing the training, but the people with experience.

That is true. But l think the only thing Xander could do in hand to hand is throw a punch. We have never seen him do anything more. I

 

[thetopher]

RE: The seal: it was opened with a (supposedly powerful) blood sacrifice, wherein it was activated. The it was deactivated by the mournful tears of Andrew and nothing else emerged afterwards.

So, either Andrew's tears DIDN'T deactivate it, Buffy was wrong and Andrew was faking\still a hideous scumbag or the writers forgot where Turok-Hans come from and forgot that they'd already closed the seal...because Buffy and co had to 'activate' it again with slayer blood in the final ep.

My money's on the latter but bad plotting and aborted character arcs are neck and neck in regards to what makes S7's writing so shoddy, and defending it is tough. Like, to coin a Buffy-phrase, trying to stop multiple water leaks by sticking your finger in a duck.

 

[garfan]

RE: The seal: it was opened with a (supposedly powerful) blood sacrifice, wherein it was activated. The it was deactivated by the mournful tears of Andrew and nothing else emerged afterwards.

So, either Andrew's tears DIDN'T deactivate it, Buffy was wrong and Andrew was faking\still a hideous scumbag or the writers forgot where Turok-Hans come from and forgot that they'd already closed the seal...because Buffy and co had to 'activate' it again with slayer blood in the final ep.

My money's on the latter but bad plotting and aborted character arcs are neck and neck in regards to what makes S7's writing so shoddy, and defending it is tough. Like, to coin a Buffy-phrase, trying to stop multiple water leaks by sticking your finger in a duck.

or Andrew's tears are a weak ass substitute for the proper magic needed to close it and only kinda held it closed for a bit?

 

[NoShip]

or Andrew's tears are a weak ass substitute for the proper magic needed to close it and only kinda held it closed for a bit?

I really like this even though I disagree. If this scenario were true, where are all the rest? I figure that there were at least 25,000 in the caves. I think that more than 3 should have come out.

 

[garfan]

I really like this even though I disagree. If this scenario were true, where are all the rest? I figure that there were at least 25,000 in the caves. I think that more than 3 should have come out.

The First didn't want to blow up more than necessary with it's bomb trap

I also think it wanted the Scythe drawn if possible, so that's why it didn't totally overrun the town. Basically the First was trying to do some sort of super complicated plot to manipulate things when brute force would have been enough. Possibly because as that was the only way it had been able to work in the past that was it's habit

 

[NotASlayer]

or Andrew's tears are a weak ass substitute for the proper magic needed to close it and only kinda held it closed for a bit?

I probably agree with @NoShip in liking this - especially as Andrews's tears were less "I'm sorry I murdered my friend" and more "I don't want to die for something that minor" - but not agreeing.

The First didn't want to blow up more than necessary with it's bomb trap

I also think it wanted the Scythe drawn if possible, so that's why it didn't totally overrun the town. Basically the First was trying to do some sort of super complicated plot to manipulate things when brute force would have been enough. Possibly because as that was the only way it had been able to work in the past that was it's habit

If it had released a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, the bomb trap would have been totally irrelevant. So, I don't think it could open it whenever it wanted.

Regarding plotting, in Sunnydale the First regularly showed itself unable to plot its way out of a paper bag.

The exception is the bomb trap and I think the meta reason for that was the writers, again, trying to show just how great Spuffy is and, again, completely proving the opposite.

Buffy led everyone into a trap that could not have been more obvious without a giant flashing neon sign above it saying "TRAP!!!!" Then wanted to do it again.

Faith led everyone into a trap where the First showed the ability to predict the future almost to the second. Because if that bomb had gone off 30 seconds in either direction, the trap would have failed.

As for a complicated plan, you might say that the First wanted the Scythe out because, once Buffy had it, she opened the seal properly and led everyone inside the Hellmouth where they were guaranteed to be wiped out if W&H hadn't out-thought everyone which would also have dropped the Scythe into the First's, incorporeal, mittens.

 

[thetopher]

Andrew's tears are a weak ass substitute for the proper magic needed to close it and only kinda held it closed for a bit?

This seems like headcanon to bolster weak story.

The fact is a 'special' sacrificial knife was needed to spill blood and open the seal, the same knife is used by Buffy to threaten Andrew into crying and then finally by the slayers and potentials to cut their collective hands.
Research into the words carved/written on the blade gave Buffy to answer in how to close the seal; not 'close it for a bit' but shut it down entirely so it wasn't causing people to go psycho.

So it's sort of an 'all or nothing' not a 'it's now randomly turns on and off as to when and how the story needs' because then why have a friggin episode devoted to closing down the seal in the first place?

And honestly why spend ages defending weak, half-ass writing by making stuff up from nothing?

 

[garfan]

And honestly why spend ages defending weak, half-ass writing by making stuff up from nothing?

because if I wasn't I wouln't still be thinking about the show 20 years later?

 

[thetopher]

because if I wasn't I wouln't still be thinking about the show 20 years later?

But there are degrees, right?
There's a pretty big difference between speculating about an unanswered question or an unclear motivation and stating 'maybe Andrew's tears weren't special enough to do the job they were supposed to.' I mean, what's that even based off of? This is just 'the writers wrote it that way so that's the way it is.'

 

[garfan]

But there are degrees, right?
There's a pretty big difference between speculating about an unanswered question or an unclear motivation and stating 'maybe Andrew's tears weren't special enough to do the job they were supposed to.' I mean, what's that even based off of? This is just 'the writers wrote it that way so that's the way it is.'

Thats based on me thinking tears to undo a blood sacrifice is weak period and the fact the seal was later reopened

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Okay, well the first is Satanic/Expy Satan, right? I mean, he seems far more interested in the ruination of individual souls than alien elder god with a different understanding of morality. Look at it this way, the First made a bargain with Andrew, serve me, sacrifice Jonathan, ye shall be as gods. (That's the thing he says!) Well, that's a deal with the Devil, right? The tears are his remorse, the rejection of the First, his works and his ways. If it wasn't a otherwise unremarkable season 7 episode, it would be a fairly good story.

We, are as gods!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

He's old and knows a lot, but he's not wise, and knows nothing of sciences like psychology, so to him…

But don’t forget that William was a Victorian gentleman and was surely well educated.

Surely Spike still remembers what he learned in his formal education, which likely included music, history (especially Greek) and classical studies. You’re right though, he may know nothing about psychology since that was an emerging science and very controversial at that time but it’s safe to assume he was educated on its basics.

Post automatically merged: Jun 21, 2024

That being said, Buffy's complete lack of empathy and use of language such as "idiot" and "weak" to describe Chloe while simultaneously berating the other Potentials in the aftermath is horrific and OOC for her, and feels inorganic, given all the personal experience she had with suicidal ideation the previous season.

I agree. Buffy’s lack of empathy and mean treatment of her could definitely be cited as both OOC and another example of how she came back with less humanity/“wrong” or part demon.