Buffy coming back “wrong”

Joan the Vampire Slayer

Carpe Spuffy!
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I was taking a look at the Buffy sub on Reddit and came across a conversation about Buffy I found interesting.

Fans were discussing the idea that Buffy came back part demon, or at least missing some of her humanity. They argued this was evidenced by her out of character behavior in the following season. Examples cited included her mean treatment of Andrew and her telling Giles of her willingness to now let Dawn die if she had to and sleeping with Spike. Also discussed was Buffy’s own fear, or intuition, that she’d come back “wrong” and it could be proven by Spike’s ability to hurt her while still chipped.

I know Tara tries to assure Buffy that she came back the same, but I’m not so sure.

Let’s discuss.
 
I agree she came back wrong. Spike said it to abuse her, but her behaviour certainly supports it.

One alternative I proposed was not that she came back wrong, but that Willow brought the wrong Buffy back. S6&7 Buffy has more in common with WishverseBuffy for example than she does with RealBuffy.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Oh man! I love this theory!
Better to say 'Buffy came back damaged', rather than wrong (wrong is Spike's term to psychologically abuse Buffy).

From a certain perspective I can see 'damaged' more; she is still the 'warrior of the people' slayer but she is mentally and emotionally scarred and we never really see her get over that by the end of the show. Maybe S6 & 7 is Buffy grappling with her damaged self, accepting it, before leaving the Hellmouth and an awful lot of baggage behind.
But that only works if you see Season 6 & 7 as a kind of continuation, which I've always seen as a cop-out to bolster a lot of S6's weak writing.

However, if we factor in the comics then, I'm sorry, but the damage was permanent; to her judgement, her sense of compassion and her morality

Or perhaps, as some like to say; 'Buffy died a hero and then came back as a heroine...'
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Awesome insights. Thanks for commenting!
Or perhaps, as some like to say; 'Buffy died a hero and then came back as a heroine...'

I have said that she died a hero and came back a protagonist.

EDIT: Note, "a" protagonist, not "the" protagonist, because in S6&7 the show ceases to be about Buffy as Spike takes more of a central role becoming the main focus in S7 and Buffy being just a thing to drive his actions.
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Buffy being willing to sacrifice Dawn was also one of the things showing what a raging hypocrite she was in S7, refusing to hold Spike to the same standards as anyone else. She may have been willing to sacrifice Dawn but she outright refused to do anything about Spike, even though he had done absolutely nothing in the entire time she had known him to justify such devotion.
 
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thetopher
thetopher
Suffering from 'main character syndrome'? :)
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Remember, as Anya said, Spike has a get out of jail free card on account of Buffy’s feelings for him. Him being her “best warrior” was just an excuse to
keep him around when in reality she simply wanted him there.
Kinda echoing what thetopher said:

I was going to say she came back traumatised, not 'wrong'. Tara even checked and explained to her why Spike could hit her - the chip was confused. She didn't come back part demon, or had lost a piece of herself.

It was a major thing coming back from the dead, and a big spell to return someone's essence back into their body. Pulling them from a different plane/dimension (or however one wants to put it) would likely alter them slightly on a molecular level.

So naturally and understandably, girl is traumatised. She was in heaven - and very likely reunited with her mother (and grandmother/grandparents I'd assume). At peace. And she was ripped out of there. You don't easily get over something like that.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
200 percent agree! What part of her do you think was missing? Was it physical or mental?
I've always found it strange that it was suggested so many times in-universe, I suspect it was part of a storyline they abandoned later. After Life in particular seemed to foreshadow it.
 
She certainly didn't come back the same, we saw evidence of that throughout the last two seasons, but that shouldn't be a surprise. The fact she has a relationship with Spike when she could barely tolerate him is evidence of that. I don't care how nice he was, Buffy pre-resurrection would have never seen him as more than a friend.

Regarding what she told Giles about sacrificing Dawn, I remain unconvinced she was telling the truth. This is the same Buffy who in that season tried to get (a technically incapacitated as well) Xander to take her sister and flee the final battle. That isn't the actions of someone willing to sacrifice their sister. I always just figured she was telling Giles what she thought he wanted to hear. We'll never know rather that is true or not though.

And how Buffy was with Andrew...I don't know if I'd call it a sign or not. After all, look at how things were with Spike during season four and early season five.
 
She certainly didn't come back the same, we saw evidence of that throughout the last two seasons, but that shouldn't be a surprise. The fact she has a relationship with Spike when she could barely tolerate him is evidence of that.

Regarding what she told Giles about sacrificing Dawn, I remain unconvinced she was telling the truth. This is the same Buffy who in that season tried to get (a technically incapacitated as well) Xander to take her sister and flee the final battle. That isn't the actions of someone willing to sacrifice their sister. I always just figured she was telling Giles what she thought he wanted to hear. We'll never know rather that is true or not though.

And how Buffy was with Andrew...I don't know if I'd call it a sign or not. After all, look at how things were with Spike during season four and early season five.
Trying to save Dawn and having her be the key to stop a God and the torment that would be unleashed on many people are different situations, I think. I believe it when she said if she had her time over she'd sacrifice Dawn.

In s7 we saw her (most of the time) take on a general's role. Battle-hardened. She didn't really react to Xander losing an eye and almost being killed, she would've let Wood die at the hands of Spike ("The mission is what matters"). She called Chloe an "idiot" after she'd taken her own life.

I don't care how nice he was, Buffy pre-resurrection would have never seen him as more than a friend.

Not even a friend. She merely saw him as muscle, used to help her out because her friends lacked super-strength.
 
N
NoShip
Spike was always just 'convenient'.
Trying to save Dawn and having her be the key to stop a God and the torment that would be unleashed on many people are different situations, I think. I believe it when she said if she had her time over she'd sacrifice Dawn.

In s7 we saw her (most of the time) take on a general's role. Battle-hardened. She didn't really react to Xander losing an eye and almost being killed, she would've let Wood die at the hands of Spike ("The mission is what matters"). She called Chloe an "idiot" after she'd taken her own life.



Not even a friend. She merely saw him as muscle, used to help her out because her friends lacked super-strength.

Well as I say we'll never know. There is also the fact that sacrificing Dawn would have only stopped Glory from opening the portal. It would not save anyone from her wrath, and that is a factor as well. Sacrificing Dawn may not have been the answer even then.

In war a general is going to have their people fighting unless they were absolutely incapable of fighting. Both Dawn and Xander were still capable and yet Buffy chose to try to get them out of harm's way, and that also says something. Even before being resurrected she had harsh moments, remember in season three when she told Debbie about 'not getting hit?'

Spike is an entirely different matter. She clearly didn't see him as just muscle because she put him above everyone and pretty much everything. The only time she was really harsh with him was when she scolded him about his change in attitude after having a soul, where she wanted the 'pre soul' vicious Spike. Other than that she basically coddled and indulged him.
 
Well as I say we'll never know. There is also the fact that sacrificing Dawn would have only stopped Glory from opening the portal. It would not save anyone from her wrath, and that is a factor as well. Sacrificing Dawn may not have been the answer even then.

In war a general is going to have their people fighting unless they were absolutely incapable of fighting. Both Dawn and Xander were still capable and yet Buffy chose to try to get them out of harm's way, and that also says something. Even before being resurrected she had harsh moments, remember in season three when she told Debbie about 'not getting hit?'
Buffy jumped in and closed Glory's portal. So sacrificing Dawn would've done the same.
Some folks may think she's just saying it to appease Giles, but I personally don't think so.

Yes I agree, Buffy has harsh moments prior to s7, but it appears you can build a bit of a list in the final season alone.



Spike is an entirely different matter. She clearly didn't see him as just muscle because she put him above everyone and pretty much everything. The only time she was really harsh with him was when she scolded him about his change in attitude after having a soul, where she wanted the 'pre soul' vicious Spike. Other than that she basically coddled and indulged him.
The fact she has a relationship with Spike when she could barely tolerate him is evidence of that. I don't care how nice he was, Buffy pre-resurrection would have never seen him as more than a friend.

Oh, I wasn't talking about her actions in s7 towards Spike.
Just mean in s5 she wouldn't even see him as a friend. She essentially was using him in the battle against Glory. And she knew he'd help because he was 'in love' with her.
 
Spike is an entirely different matter. She clearly didn't see him as just muscle because she put him above everyone and pretty much everything. The only time she was really harsh with him was when she scolded him about his change in attitude after having a soul, where she wanted the 'pre soul' vicious Spike. Other than that she basically coddled and indulged him.

Well, coddling Spike is "The Mission" and everything is secondary to "The Mission." 🙂
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Just mean in s5 she wouldn't even see him as a friend. She essentially was using him in the battle against Glory. And she knew he'd help because he was 'in love' with her.
Funnily enough, Spike provided the last valuable contribution of anyone to the battle and the run-up. Riley could have fulfilled his role in the battle.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Buffy said she believed they needed Spike to win the battle. Little did she know he’d be the one to save them all and close the Hellmouth.
Well, coddling Spike is "The Mission" and everything is secondary to "The Mission."
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Funnily enough, Spike provided the last valuable contribution of anyone to the battle and the run-up. Riley could have fulfilled his role.

Getting pushed aside like he was weightless during that final battle makes one almost laugh. Honestly, there needed to be a scene where he and Doc fought it out, even for 30 seconds.
 
@Joan the Vampire Slayer I was talking about the battle in "The Gift"! Spike was the least useful in the run-up to that battle - he stole an RV that was slower than horses! - and the battle itself.

Regarding S7, Buffy lying about Spike being the "best warrior" simply to keep him around just showed how utterly broken and unfit for leadership she was by that point. Thanks to Spike.

Once Buffy started acting all idiotic around Spike, the Scoobies should have shipped her off to the witches to get the help she desperately needed.

The final battle was pure luck and totally unnecessary. If not for Angel joining W&H and getting the amulet, Buffy would have got everyone killed. Instead of just a whole bunch of people, thanks to her incompetence. W&H deserve the credit for closing the Hellmouth.
 
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Well, you have to remember, that true resurrection is rare in the Buffyverse. Every thing we have seen up to this point has been some form of undeath, an entity reanimated by some exotic form of energy, and that only has a casual connection to the life that once inhabited it. That's what Spike has seen. Nobody leaves Paradise.
 
I was taking a look at the Buffy sub on Reddit and came across a conversation about Buffy I found interesting.

Fans were discussing the idea that Buffy came back part demon, or at least missing some of her humanity. They argued this was evidenced by her out of character behavior in the following season. Examples cited included her mean treatment of Andrew and her telling Giles of her willingness to now let Dawn die if she had to and sleeping with Spike. Also discussed was Buffy’s own fear, or intuition, that she’d come back “wrong” and it could be proven by Spike’s ability to hurt her while still chipped.

I know Tara tries to assure Buffy that she came back the same, but I’m not so sure.

Let’s discuss.

Sounds like the Redditors need to watch the Show.

Buffy wasn't mean to Andrew. She let him live and fed and protected him. After all he did to her as part of the Trio and after murdering Jonathan. Andrew deserved a lot worse than he got. He wasn't fully on board with Buffy until halfway through the season!

With Dawn, her actions belied her words. I think her words were written to showcase her newfound ruthlessness and committment to doing whatever it took to win. Of course, the last scene of LMPTM showed her earlier words to be lies. It would have been nice if Whedon & Co put as much effort into the narrative as they did onto the emotions of it all.

Spike was obsessive manipulative entitled abusive scum. His words and actions, before and after Buffy dumped him, were classic domestic abuser. I could never figure out why so many people found Spike's disgusting abuse of Buffy hot.

Tara nailed it. Buffy was resurrected with a deep molecular tan. Buffy was still 100% Buffy. Too bad Buffy didn't immediately spend a lot more time with Tara. She was a true friend.

As to the chip. I don't know. My favorite choices are the deep molecular tan threw off the chip or the chip started breaking down/malfunctioning way before TKIM. Beyond those, your guess is as good as mine.
 
I agree that Buffy did treat Andrew and Jonathan like a jerk. To be fair, they were a mild annoyance to her over the last six months. And not as handsome as Ben. Does he have a last name?
 
thetopher
thetopher
...the Nurse?
Spike was obsessive manipulative entitled abusive scum. His words and actions, before and after Buffy dumped him, were classic domestic abuser. I could never figure out why so many people found Spike's disgusting abuse of Buffy hot.
It is simple. Spike is pretty and can be charming. If he looked like the Master, his behaviour would be condemned. And the technology now exists to prove that; you could go through the scenes, replacing Spike's face and hands with those of the Master and see if his abuse is still romanticised.

Although the more extreme Spuffy fans, those who threaten SMG, would likely claim that this is not the "real" Spike. Even if everything else, including what he says, his voice, body and dress, remained the same.
 
Sounds like the Redditors need to watch the Show.

Buffy wasn't mean to Andrew. She let him live and fed and protected him. After all he did to her as part of the Trio and after murdering Jonathan. Andrew deserved a lot worse than he got. He wasn't fully on board with Buffy until halfway through the season!

With Dawn, her actions belied her words. I think her words were written to showcase her newfound ruthlessness and committment to doing whatever it took to win. Of course, the last scene of LMPTM showed her earlier words to be lies. It would have been nice if Whedon & Co put as much effort into the narrative as they did onto the emotions of it all.

Spike was obsessive manipulative entitled abusive scum. His words and actions, before and after Buffy dumped him, were classic domestic abuser. I could never figure out why so many people found Spike's disgusting abuse of Buffy hot.

Tara nailed it. Buffy was resurrected with a deep molecular tan. Buffy was still 100% Buffy. Too bad Buffy didn't immediately spend a lot more time with Tara. She was a true friend.

As to the chip. I don't know. My favorite choices are the deep molecular tan threw off the chip or the chip started breaking down/malfunctioning way before TKIM. Beyond those, your guess is as good as mine.
I'll be very clear about this - I find Spike deliriously hot. Smokin' hot.
His actions and his 'relationship' with Buffy? NOT. Absolutely nothing about it is sexy.

I can separate the two. For example, there are folks out there who find the balcony scene in Dead Things hot. Can't for the life of me understand it, when he's penetrating her and she's about to cry. That is not hot in the slightest.


Joan the Vampire Slayer 200 percent agree! What part of her do you think was missing? Was it physical or mental?

I don't anything was 'missing' per se, she'd just experienced a traumatic event. As Tara confirmed, nothing was technically wrong with her. But being pulled from Heaven affected her mental health. She was depressed, and early on, basically suicidal.

Obviously in the real world no one's experiencing a resurrection, but when you go through a major event in your life, you're never quite 100% the same again.
 
I've never understood why some fans get so caught up with the "canonical" interpretation of things. What really matter are the underlying story and themes. Buffy's immense success owes to its double-meaning. The fantasy stuff is cool and all, but it's just the veneer for the deeper themes which are very much human, which is what makes it so relatable. Joss & co. showed a darker, more depressed Buffy facing the hardships and challenges of adult life alone. No dreamy Angel by her side. Lost her mother. Younger sister to support. It's hard, and she does some emotionally (and physically) destructive things to herself, such as hooking up with Spike.

The pun here is quite obvious. She was literally dead on the show, and emotionally or spiritually she feels dead inside for a good long bit in S6.
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I could never figure out why so many people found Spike's disgusting abuse of Buffy hot.

Bad boys. Get 'em every time.

Scorpions - Bad Boys Running Wild
 
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I don't think Buffy came back wrong, nor do I believe she came back part demon. The latter can be disputed by season 7 when she enters the alternate dimension and discovers how the first slayer was created. Those men literally placed an aspect of the demon inside the First Slayer and offered to do the same for her. Why would they need to make her less human if she already came back part demon? And to be fair, you could argue the Slayer is part demon because of this lineage. If that power is passed onto the next generation, then technically you could argue the power is partially demonic in the first place. And we never saw anything to indicate Buffy was stronger after she came back, so her becoming part demon? Nah.

There are plenty of theories as to why Spike could hit Buffy with no pain, even with the chip still in his head. He spent months without Buffy, and technically grieved after her death, so on some level, it could have altered the chip's function. There are plenty of possibilities, but Spike saying she came back wrong was clearly a jab, nothing more.

To me, the changes in her personality reflected the times. In season 6, we see her actions reflecting her emotions. She feels dead inside, therefore she turns further into darkness to hopefully feel something; anything. It's destructive behavior at its worst. In the process, we also see her starting to grow up, and quite frankly, growing up is a painful process. She's coping with being brought back to life after she was literally in heaven. She's her sister's guardian AND is struggling financially, meanwhile her best friend is also dealing with a form of addiction. Her father figure and mentor is gone. Personally, I think she turns to Spike because everyone else is dealing with their own problems, but in reality, she's blind to what is going on around her.

Later in the season, we see her end things with Spike. She tries to be there for Dawn after discovering how miserable her sister is and that she has been stealing constantly. She tries to help Willow too. I don't think she came back wrong, I think she feels wrong because life kept moving in her absence and she got thrust back into it AND was expected to grow up quicker. It's different from the type of hardships she faced in season 2, which I also find incredibly hard, but more so coming-of-age realities than the harshness of adulthood.

By season 7, Buffy has learned a lot and hopefully from some of her mistakes. At this point, they have faced enough battles and apocalypses for her to understand that battles have casualties. Do I think she was willing to sacrifice Dawn? Absolutely. Her having Xander drive off with her doesn't dispute this at all. If anything, I think she cares about them, but also realizes neither of them are particularly useful in the final battle. Dawn isn't a potential. Xander lost an eye. Even when they come back because Dawn turns the car around, Buffy cracks a joke. "If you die, I'm telling." Would she grieve over the loss of her sister? Yes, but in some ways she's already faced that reality when she sacrificed herself for Dawn. She chose the alternative.

Which brings me to my next point. In the end, if they don't win the battle, then what is the point? Buffy understands lives will be lost. The impending battle they're facing is unlike any they've seen before, and if they lose, then even more lives will be lost. One life - even the life of her sister - doesn't outweigh the many. It's also why she is nonchalant about Chloe's death too. And you could argue that Buffy jumped in to save Dawn, but at that point, Buffy had already lost soo much. She considered Dawn an innocent. Closing the portal only required the loss of one life to save the world. If Dawn died, the battle would still continue on and other people were going to die. It's a matter of a bigger picture.

Even when Angel swoops in with the amulet, he offers to wear it. Buffy rejects this idea, not because she loves Angel, but because she can't sacrifice him in case they lose the battle. She clearly thought about the possibility of them losing, and by having Angel back in LA, it gave a second front, someone to continue fighting in their stead. And as much as she cared about Spike, I don't think she particularly cared if he died either.

Personally, I think the show did an exceptional job of having Buffy grow and change throughout the seasons. As someone who watched all 15 seasons of Supernatural and constantly witnessed the back and forth between Sam and Dean sacrificing themselves for each other, and putting the world in danger because of it, it's refreshing - that even back then - we had someone who learned and grew as a person.
 
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