Buffy and Willow

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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In “Smashed,” Buffy goes into Willow’s room to talk to her about something, but they’re interrupted by Amy, who Willow had just turned human again after accidentally turning her into a rat years prior.

What do you think Buffy came to talk to Willow about? Spike? Tara? Something else? It seems obvious to me that she’s referring to getting involved with Spike but I’m curious if anyone thinks it was something else she wanted to talk about.
 
'I'm making incredibly poor judgement calls regarding Spike and not kissing him.'

That's probably what Buffy would confess. That it's , amazingly, happened twice already and Buffy doesn't want it to happen again. Willow has always been very sympathetic to Buffy's romantic woes, especially when they involve vampires, and would lend a sympathetic ear.


...And then probably try and fix things with magic! Yep, I could definitely see her casting more spells, erasing more memories and/or manipulating more emotions. For Buffy's own good, of course.

Honestly, if somebody tried to wipe my memory because I told them I was feeling down, I wouldn't confide in them again for a good long time, if ever.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great point! As Tara said, Willow always tries to fix everything with magic.
'I'm making incredibly poor judgement calls regarding Spike and not kissing him.'

That's probably what Buffy would confess. That it's , amazingly, happened twice already and Buffy doesn't want it to happen again. Willow has always been very sympathetic to Buffy's romantic woes, especially when they involve vampires, and would lend a sympathetic ear.


...And then probably try and fix things with magic! Yep, I could definitely see her casting more spells, erasing more memories and/or manipulating more emotions. For Buffy's own good, of course.

Honestly, if somebody tried to wipe my memory because I told them I was feeling down, I wouldn't confide in them again for a good long time, if ever.

yes, well Tara was the only person in the history of the Buffyverse to express discomfort with the violation of self cause by magic. Everyone else was just upset by like the ignoring of potential consequences of magic use, and I'm talking throughout the shows, all magic users in this case.
 
N
NoShip
I am trying to think of an example to prove you wrong. So far I can't.
I would suspect it was the same thing she went to see Tara about with the main question being, 'why do I let him do the things he does to me' and Tara finally getting the idea that she is talking about something sexual.

Her talk to Willow may have been about the same thing or it may have been about Willow's excessive use of magic, which was becoming evident to everyone by then. The word 'excessive' doesn't quite carry the total meaning here: Willow's use is arrogant, assuming she knows everything she needs to know and psychotic, like when she and Amy went clubbing and turned people into other things.

The only other thing that I can imagine being the topic of conversation would be what Buffy told Willow later in "Gone", that Buffy was OK with being brought back from the dead.
 
This is sarcasm, right? Has to be.

well, I mean let's see.

Xander and 4 others personalities are subsumed beneath a primal hyena spirit. Four of them end up becoming cannibals due to this. Those four are never mentioned again and Xander is allowed to lie about having no memory because he'd be embarrassed about his actions under the control of the spirit. Despite the actions of the spirit not being him

In season 2 no one talks about any horror of people's identities being subsumed by the Halloween costumes. No thought it given to the trauma the little kids might have experienced being turned into demons

Cordelia treats the love spell as a romantic gesture and it's thought so little of that Amy isn't even watched afterwards

Angel's soul? No thought is ever given to the fact Liam was not there for Angelus' crimes

The Band Candy incident where everyone is reverted to their teen selves? Merely an embarrassing loss of control

The people controlled in Gingerbread, where they're willing to burn their own children. A terrible even but we never see any existential horror

Superstar? It gets laughed off, "I felt to tall" and he gets a minor talking to

Dawn?
 
Xander and 4 others personalities are subsumed beneath a primal hyena spirit.

This isn't a magic spell though, it's spirit possession and the principal person behind the plot is eaten alive by wild animals, getting his comeuppance.

The victims are treated sympathetically- as they should- but it's the person doing the spell you should focus on.
.

In season 2 no one talks about any horror of people's identities being subsumed by the Halloween costumes.

But people realize that Ethan Rayne- the person who caused the spell- is y'know, evil and dangerous. That is acknowledged by people; what he did was wrong.

Cordelia treats the love spell as a romantic gesture and it's thought so little of that Amy isn't even watched afterwards

Xander is punished by the narrative throughout the episode, and never messes with magic again for years.

In fact, he seems quite alarmed and objects when Willow tries a 'de-lusting spell' (without his consent) the very next year. So no, he doesn't seem chill at all with somebody messing with his brain.
So that's him, here, and Tara later.

Angel's soul? No thought is ever given to the fact Liam was not there for Angelus' crimes

All the people who inflicted the curse of Angel have long since been eaten. And those that are complicit in the present are brutally killed...by Angelus. I don't see your wider point, sorry.

The Band Candy incident where everyone is reverted to their teen selves? Merely an embarrassing loss of control

Yep, Sunnydale denial syndrome in full effect. It again establishes that the caster- Ethan Rayne- is still dangerous and evil. People are not chill with what HE DID, if they even knew, which most people didn't.

The people controlled in Gingerbread, where they're willing to burn their own children. A terrible even but we never see any existential horror

Demonic influence is, again, not a magic spell and the demons end up being killed. That's why everyone is chill after, those that DID the bad thing are dealt with.

Superstar? It gets laughed off, "I felt to tall" and he gets a minor talking to

Buffy herself is incredibly generous to Jonathan...(because of the intent of the spell and because he did 'the right thing' in the end) but he outright states that everyone else hates him (as they should) even whilst people start forgetting the effects of the spell and why they hate him.


Everyone responsible for Dawn's creation is dead, their reason for doing something so desperate (and..kinda crappy) is busily stomping around Sunnydale making people insane. Stands to reason that the principals effected by the spell- our cast- are more concerned about that.


You seem to be making the mistake of conflate people's reactions to the effects of the spell where you should be focusing on the person who did the spell and how they are treated by the narrative, not to mention how they are seen by the main cast as extremely suss, sometimes unhinged, occasionally inept, oft times outright evil.
And that is how it is depicted in the narrative until post-Tabula Rasa where everyone is chill with the person who cast the spell on them, the spell going wrong and them being all put in danger after.
Except Tara, who leaves. But that seems to be because Willow broke her word about not doing magic and not because of the 'playing with minds' thing.

It does not excuse what Willow did, what she tries to do and what she will do in the future. It blows my mind that you thing that they shouldn't act like she did anything wrong when its evident that she did.

In mind opioion everyone should've reacted to Willow's antics like the way they did post-Something Blue...times ten, because of the intent.

So again, it is a wonderment to me that Buffy was going to confide in the person whose current thing is 'manipulating emotions with magic' but whatever, clearly she's desperate and hasn't got the energy to scream at Willow that her entire state of mind at this point is her fault.
 
...And then probably try and fix things with magic! Yep, I could definitely see her casting more spells, erasing more memories and/or manipulating more emotions. For Buffy's own good, of course.

"Buffy, I fixed things for you with Spike using magic! I set him on fire!"

That would be far too easy, useful and straightforward though.
 
You seem to be making the mistake of conflate people's reactions to the effects of the spell where you should be focusing on the person who did the spell and how they are treated by the narrative, not to mention how they are seen by the main cast as extremely suss, sometimes unhinged, occasionally inept, oft times outright evil.

In fact I strongly disagree. In all the instances you list the reason why the person is seen as more or less evil is because they endangered people's lives to a higher or lower degree. There's no thoughts given to the horror a person would experience as they awaken to realize their body has done things when outside of their control. That should be a bigger deal

it's a perspective thing. Like framing a news story. It's like most Buffyverse stories are "Mass shooting in ----! 10 dead dozens injured! Suspect dead(or at large depending on the story)" and with the Tara and Willow was a human interest story "She's the survivor of a shooting that left ten dead and dozens injured."


And that is how it is depicted in the narrative until post-Tabula Rasa where everyone is chill with the person who cast the spell on them, the spell going wrong and them being all put in danger after.
Except Tara, who leaves. But that seems to be because Willow broke her word about not doing magic and not because of the 'playing with minds' thing.
I'm giving Tara credit here for her lyric in OMWF "They'll be nothing left of me"

So again, it is a wonderment to me that Buffy was going to confide in the person whose current thing is 'manipulating emotions with magic' but whatever, clearly she's desperate and hasn't got the energy to scream at Willow that her entire state of mind at this point is her fault.

I blame the creation of Dawn more than Willow's resurrection of Buffy for that. That's the mental manipulation that made what happened in season 5 enough to break Buffy
 
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In fact I strongly disagree. In all the instances you list the reason why the person is seen as more or less evil is because they endangered people's lives to a higher or lower degree.

Yes, just like Willow did in S4 and in S6. And yet in S4 people are bothered and those same people in S6 aren't. That's where the problem lies, the cognitive dissonance.

The show was always consistent in glossing over the 'collateral damage' or being possessed or mind-controlled or whatever, but not with our principal protagonists because, obviously, they only had so much time to tell their story.
I'm here for Buffy and pals not for how the bullies are struggling with their cannibalizing the principal. If those people are alive then they're alive because of our protagonists. As long as the perpetrators are punished, that's the main thing; justice served.

Except Willow, who pretty much gets away with zero consequence.

That should be a bigger deal it's a perspective thing. Like framing a news story.

No, its fiction. Fiction can have any set of rules or framing that it chooses to, as long as its consistent in those rules. S6 is not, the way Willow's character is treated is not.

I blame the creation of Dawn more than Willow's resurrection of Buffy for that. That's the mental manipulation that made what happened in season 5 enough to break Buffy

S6 Buffy is in a far worse position emotionally than she ever was in S5, that's almost entirely on Willow, not Dawn. S6 Buffy decides to live because of Dawn, Willow just left her in the dirt.
 
Yes, just like Willow did in S4 and in S6. And yet in S4 people are bothered and those same people in S6 aren't. That's where the problem lies, the cognitive dissonance.

The show was always consistent in glossing over the 'collateral damage' or being possessed or mind-controlled or whatever, but not with our principal protagonists because, obviously, they only had so much time to tell their story.
I'm here for Buffy and pals not for how the bullies are struggling with their cannibalizing the principal. If those people are alive then they're alive because of our protagonists. As long as the perpetrators are punished, that's the main thing; justice served.

Except Willow, who pretty much gets away with zero consequence.

Jonathan was never punished. It took three seasons for Ethan to be punished, Amy was either never punished or somehow she gets karmic punishment through magic gone wrong to save her from a demon possessese mob

S6 Buffy is in a far worse position emotionally than she ever was in S5, that's almost entirely on Willow, not Dawn. S6 Buffy decides to live because of Dawn, Willow just left her in the dirt.

she was depressed because she was dead, she was dead ecause of Dawn
 
she was depressed because she was brought back to life, she was brought back to life because of Willow. That is said and shown time and time again.

got to be dead to be brought back to life. She was dead because of Dawn

I never respected or liked the end of the Gift. She made the wrong choice. And if she couldn't have survived making that choice that just shows how Dawn's creation broke her
 
She was dead because of Dawn
On the slip side, she was finally at peace and safe because of Dawn. A safety that Willow ripped away from her. Dawn gave her peace and Willow took that peace and gave her torment and terror and then was offended when Buffy was not thankful for it.
 
On the slip side, she was finally at peace and safe because of Dawn. A safety that Willow ripped away from her. Dawn gave her peace and Willow took that peace and gave her torment and terror and then was offended when Buffy was not thankful for it.
sorry, this logic makes allowing Willow's apocalypse run or Jasmine's world peace would be the better end. Peace is available, we know how to get it and the stars of the show are denying it to the common people
 
Jasmine's world peace would be the better end.
Wasn't that exactly why Angel and Co took over Wolfram and Hart? Because they ended world peace and sent the world back into chaos. Even at the end episode they are looking around at the world they created by ending peace and thought they made the wrong decision. They allowed pain and suffering to continue and in so doing made the world a much worse place.
 
Wasn't that exactly why Angel and Co took over Wolfram and Hart? Because they ended world peace and sent the world back into chaos. Even at the end episode they are looking around at the world they created by ending peace and thought they made the wrong decision. They allowed pain and suffering to continue and in so doing made the world a much worse place.

that was what W&H pitched the takeover as. I'm not sure we were supposed to buy it as legitimate
 
that was what W&H pitched the takeover as. I'm not sure we were supposed to buy it as legitimate
Angel and Co did. And based on the montages after they killed Jasmine not sure how you could think otherwise.
 
Angel and Co did. And based on the montages after they killed Jasmine not sure how you could think otherwise.

because I found the behavior of the people under Jasmine's control worse. Like that's what real mind control looks like. No one who was on Tara's side in her argument with Willow should be able to approve of Jasmine
 
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