And it was still impossible to take it seriously in Sunnydale. Except if Faith had to look bad; then it could predict the future almost down to the second.
Given what they knew about the Punyvamps, entering the Hellmouth was suicide. Heck, even though they were now so puny that they could be killed by toddlers with pointy sticks, entering the Hellmouth outnumbered that badly was suicide. Buffy's "plan" was idiotic.
And it was still impossible to take it seriously in Sunnydale. Except if Faith had to look bad; then it could predict the future almost down to the second.
Given what they knew about the Punyvamps, entering the Hellmouth was suicide. Heck, even though they were now so puny that they could be killed by toddlers with pointy sticks, entering the Hellmouth outnumbered that badly was suicide. Buffy's "plan" was idiotic.
Re: The First as a Concept: I think the god of suicides part could have been terrifying. Like, the First isn't Satan or Ahriman, it's a hive mind of the damned, who really have nothing but hatred for the living left, but are also in a state of decay, so suicides are something of a sacrifice that keeps it going. Something that appeals to your most nihilistic impulses to end it all. But it also wants to live again, and the season becomes about stopping that. But that could get pretty dark, and Buffy hadn't committed in years to being horror.
Re: The First as a Concept: I think the god of suicides part could have been terrifying. Like, the First isn't Satan or Ahriman, it's a hive mind of the damned, who really have nothing but hatred for the living left, but are also in a state of decay, so suicides are something of a sacrifice that keeps it going. Something that appeals to your most nihilistic impulses to end it all. But it also wants to live again, and the season becomes about stopping that. But that could get pretty dark, and Buffy hadn't committed in years to being horror.
And it's also not the sort of monster the show was set up to beat. Glory was a god, but could be beaten, because she could be punched in the face. Or hit with a hammer or a wrecking ball. But something that is intangible couldn't be beaten by Buffy and indeed wasn't.
And it's also not the sort of monster the show was set up to beat. Glory was a god, but could be beaten, because she could be punched in the face. Or hit with a hammer or a wrecking ball. But something that is intangible couldn't be beaten by Buffy and indeed wasn't.
Despite having gone through a similar thing with Maggie Walsh, and this time even worse. You could have ended the season with Caleb defeated and called it done, because nothing after that achieved anything other than making Buffy look like a complete idiot on top of everything else, as S7 did Buffy herself no favours.
Despite having gone through a similar thing with Maggie Walsh, and this time even worse. You could have ended the season with Caleb defeated and called it done, because nothing after that achieved anything other than making Buffy look like a complete idiot on top of everything else, as S7 did Buffy herself no favours.
To be honest Buffy wasn't great against Caleb either. As Giles pointed out It could be a Stapler about him having something of hers.
He beats her up and leaves Buffy and doesn't finish her in Empty Places for well reasons I guess
He then digs up the Scythe for Buffy for well more reasons
He then kills the old White Woman "after" she delivers the Exposition. Is basically facing a 2 on 1 (3 if Spike got involved) with Buffy and Angel, who only doesn't get involved because the fight scenes (Buffy kills him twice) would be unfair
Buffys only proven right because she's the main character and so she's always got to be right
To be honest Buffy wasn't great against Caleb either. As Giles pointed out It could be a Stapler about him having something of hers.
He beats her up and leaves Buffy and doesn't finish her in Empty Places for well reasons I guess
He then digs up the Scythe for Buffy for well more reasons
He then kills the old White Woman "after" she delivers the Exposition. Is basically facing a 2 on 1 (3 if Spike got involved) with Buffy and Angel, who only doesn't get involved because the fight scenes (Buffy kills him twice) would be unfair
Buffys only proven right because she's the main character and so she's always got to be right
And yet she still manages to be wrong, because if not for Angel turning up, completely unexpectedly, with the shiny amulet of idiot saving, she would still have led everyone into the Hellmouth and got them all killed as well as unleashing the Ubervamps. Because she was literally that stupid by this point.
And it's also not the sort of monster the show was set up to beat. Glory was a god, but could be beaten, because she could be punched in the face. Or hit with a hammer or a wrecking ball. But something that is intangible couldn't be beaten by Buffy and indeed wasn't.
The issue with this type of villain is an "anchor," whether the anchor is a cultist, or an avatar or golem. This type of villain needs someway of interacting with the world, you destroy the way, it's done.
You also need a finite source of energy, or some win conditions. Kill all the cultists, destroy all the temples, have Paula use pray seven times, take the artifact of evil and purify it. It's easy enough, they just didn't.
The whole reason for the AR was because the plot for Spuffy Season 6 was meant to be Spike as the abusive boyfriend. The problem was the audience considered Buffy the abuser in the relationship (I think the beating in Dead Things was probably the reason) any that frustrated Joss who wanted to remind the Audience Spike was evil and you shouldn't have sympathy for him.
And it was still impossible to take it seriously in Sunnydale. Except if Faith had to look bad; then it could predict the future almost down to the second.
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True, all possible! Just a shame, you should want harmony on a set, not to create friction.
@Btvs fan What do I think of Spike on s5 of AtS?
Well, there's some bias in my reply as a Spike fan, but I loved him there. He was still problematic, still had issues (example: trying to drag Harmony off - against her will - to have sex with him, after the events over on BTVS... not a good look). He was basically Spike pre-soul, until they touched on it and then you'd remember, "Oh right, he's also got a soul!"
He seemed to fit in better with the gang there, he got somewhat of a clean slate with the group, was treated with respect. He was becoming good of his own accord. Wasn't weirdly obsessive and latching on to Buffy and was showing signs of growth. Plus he got to mock Angel endlessly, which was hilarious. 😁
And it's also not the sort of monster the show was set up to beat. Glory was a god, but could be beaten, because she could be punched in the face. Or hit with a hammer or a wrecking ball. But something that is intangible couldn't be beaten by Buffy and indeed wasn't.
With more planning, they could've come up with a solution to this problem of trying to fight The Taunter The First, whilst still having Caleb involved later as its right-hand man.
Perhaps the First uses dark magics to temporarily become corporeal.
The issue with this type of villain is an "anchor," whether the anchor is a cultist, or an avatar or golem. This type of villain needs someway of interacting with the world, you destroy the way, it's done.
You also need a finite source of energy, or some win conditions. Kill all the cultists, destroy all the temples, have Paula use pray seven times, take the artifact of evil and purify it. It's easy enough, they just didn't.
Yes; Angel did it better. The Woilf, the Ram and the Hart were behind the scenes. W&H and the Black Thorn were the ones interacted with. The former couldn't be beaten. The latter could be punched in the face.
Timers are used on time bombs. They aren't used to count down after it's going off. The whole situation was engineered to make Buffy look good and Faith look bad; instead, it showed that if Buffy had gone up against the same First as Faith did, she would have got everyone killed earlier in the season, she was just that incompetent by this point.
He needed to have moved over earlier; his mocking of Angel in Into the Dark where he provides a voiceover for what Angel was saying was both believable and hilarious.
With more planning, they could've come up with a solution to this problem of trying to fight The Taunter The First, whilst still having Caleb involved later as its right-hand man.
Perhaps the First uses dark magics to temporarily become corporeal.
Yes; there were ways they could have got around it; somewhere I've mentioned some myself. Plus, as it stood, there was no reason to go into the Hellmouth. They weren't trying to destroy it - that was an accident unconnected to them - they couldn't wipe out the Ubervamps, as outnumbered as they were - same accident - so what was the whole purpose of going in? The only thing that makes sense is that Buffy was working for the First.
To be honest Buffy wasn't great against Caleb either. As Giles pointed out It could be a Stapler about him having something of hers.
He beats her up and leaves Buffy and doesn't finish her in Empty Places for well reasons I guess
He then digs up the Scythe for Buffy for well more reasons
He then kills the old White Woman "after" she delivers the Exposition. Is basically facing a 2 on 1 (3 if Spike got involved) with Buffy and Angel, who only doesn't get involved because the fight scenes (Buffy kills him twice) would be unfair
Buffys only proven right because she's the main character and so she's always got to be right
You do realize the first fight with the Turok_Han went the same way right?
And she was only "wrong" up to that point because Joss and co want the main character to suffer as much as possible till the dramatic end. The plot armor is true for both sides
Timers are used on time bombs. They aren't used to count down after it's going off. The whole situation was engineered to make Buffy look good and Faith look bad; instead, it showed that if Buffy had gone up against the same First as Faith did, she would have got everyone killed earlier in the season, she was just that incompetent by this point.
The First was perfectly capable of busting into Buffy's house with a bunch of suicide bombers Bringers and blowing up the house the way they did the Watchers Council. It has nothing to do with competence
Yes; there were ways they could have got around it; somewhere I've mentioned some myself. Plus, as it stood, there was no reason to go into the Hellmouth. They weren't trying to destroy it - that was an accident unconnected to them - they couldn't wipe out the Ubervamps, as outnumbered as they were - same accident - so what was the whole purpose of going in?
He needed to have moved over earlier; his mocking of Angel in Into the Dark where he provides a voiceover for what Angel was saying was both believable and hilarious.
One of the greatest speeches ever. But, agreed. And we've touched on this before (actually I believe you mentioned it first), of Spike bouncing between the two shows. Or if he made the permanent move, going over to LA earlier as the reluctant ally.
Yes; there were ways they could have got around it; somewhere I've mentioned some myself. Plus, as it stood, there was no reason to go into the Hellmouth. They weren't trying to destroy it - that was an accident unconnected to them - they couldn't wipe out the Ubervamps, as outnumbered as they were - same accident - so what was the whole purpose of going in? The only thing that makes sense is that Buffy was working for the First.
OK, I almost spat out the water I was drinking after reading Buffy was actually an agent for the First! 😂
A number of things could've gone wrong entering the Hellmouth/school. Willow could've been ambushed and killed as she set up for the spell. And only a Potential protecting her?
Joss also made the error that suddenly - without explanation - the Ubervamps could be killed with a feather. After making a big song and dance, showing the audience how difficult it was for Buffy to even kill one.
It's one of those things where they'd already shown early on that it would be a bad idea to have something - in this case Amends showed the First was a bad bad, not a Big Bad - an yet went ahead with it anyway. In this case because they were out of ideas and had been for some time and the First was one of the very, very few surviving MotW.
being out of ideas in a supernatural horror show just shows when there's so much they hadn't touched on jsut shows they're hacks.
But also, I think season 4 and Maggie Walsh shows they really wanted to do a villain where Buffy had to beat it without being able to punch it. But just like season 4, they had to realize they didn't know how to do that
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