Did Angel Leave Buffy for legitimate reasons?

[Bop]

This seems like an unpopular opinion, but Buffy, despite being a slayer, can have a normal, happy relationship with a human. Angel left to give Buffy a chance at that so yes to me Angel had a legitimate reason to leave and I was very proud of him 🙂
Even as a Bangel fan, I can see that it would have been unfair of Angel to stick around because Buffy would never leave him and therefore she'd be missing out on sex, daytime fun, marriage, children. It also wasn't fair on Angel because he was having to constantly keep a cap on how happy he is around Buffy. What sort of life is that?
Of course, I'll always hope that Angel gets the shanshu and they reunite because I don't think they'll ever find anyone they love more than each other.

 

[brinkster130]

@brinkster130 See, I don't quite get that reasoning. Why would he forfeit his position in her life, a position that he might not be able to give her everything he thinks she deserves, to play the background, where he has no guarantee she will get anything near what he thinks she deserves? I mean, he could be sure that he would try his best to give her everything she deserves, but he can't ensure the next guy would even do that much, i.e. Parker. I might understand if there was a person currently in Buffy's life who he believed would give her what he believed she deserved, but there wasn't. I don't see what he thought he was giving to her. He wasn't giving her a chance to be with an actual person, but a hypothetical person who doesn't even exist. He just left the woman he loved high and dry from where I'm standing, and for dubious reasons, which frustrate me. I know he loves her, but I don't really see why he would leave her to pursue a life that, during the break-up scene, they both admit she could never have?

He doesn’t think it’s fair to put his feelings above her future. Sometimes when you care for someone you put their happiness over your own. Sure, he has no clue what being normal will be like for Buffy, but he’s spent a lot of time with her seeing her desires to be a normal teen - wanting to date, go to school dances, hang out with friends, shop etc. etc. He doesn’t want to be the one to stop any of those things from happening, so he decided to step out of the picture so the Buffy would have the ~chance~ at a normal life. Sure, these doubts and feelings probably became stronger after Joyce pointed out Buffy deserved more but they were clearly something he had thought about before Joyce confirmed it. I think they key here is that he believed that leaving would give Buffy the best chance at having a normal life, whatever she decided to pick as her normal.

I get not liking the reason, but it is a reason.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

so he decided to step out of the picture so the Buffy would have the ~chance~ at a normal life.

Wasn't he told to. Even though he might have thought about it, I doubt he would have done it if not for Joyce. And I am sure if Joyce said her little monologue and Angel stayed then she would have made life for Buffy miserable.

 

[Curious Pathos]

He doesn’t think it’s fair to put his feelings above her future. Sometimes when you care for someone you put their happiness over your own. Sure, he has no clue what being normal will be like for Buffy, but he’s spent a lot of time with her seeing her desires to be a normal teen - wanting to date, go to school dances, hang out with friends, shop etc. etc. He doesn’t want to be the one to stop any of those things from happening, so he decided to step out of the picture so the Buffy would have the ~chance~ at a normal life. Sure, these doubts and feelings probably became stronger after Joyce pointed out Buffy deserved more but they were clearly something he had thought about before Joyce confirmed it. I think they key here is that he believed that leaving would give Buffy the best chance at having a normal life, whatever she decided to pick as her normal.

I get not liking the reason, but it is a reason.

It is a reason but is it a legitimate reason?

 

[Mylie]

It is a reason but is it a legitimate reason?

Obviously Angel thinks so, so yes!

 

[Curious Pathos]

Obviously Angel thinks so, so yes!

Okay, I think I figured out what's wrong. I understand the reasoning on an emotional level and obviously, a lot of others do too, but I don't understand it logically. My heart follows what both characters are feeling, and yet, as an outside observer, my mind can't quite grasp it. It might be because I don't believe in no-win scenarios. Kobayashi-Maru, this is not. And yet, I want to logically understand it so my emotions of past Bangel can be laid to rest. Does that make sense to anybody?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Angel was getting a spin-off. Everything else is post hoc reasoning.

 

[Curious Pathos]

Angel was getting a spin-off. Everything else is post hoc reasoning.

We were talking about the logic of Angel the character, not Angel the show. His in-canon reasons, do you see them as logically legitimate reasons? If so, then how?

 

[flow]

I have to admit that the reasons he gave for leaving her,annoyed me a lot, because I belong to those people, who have fertility issues. I remember, telling my now-husband about these issues on our third date. He could have backed off then. He decided not to. None of us ever looked back.

No, I never bought the children and marriage and normal life reasons. I didn`t even buy the daylight-dates reason. She is working nightshifts anyway.

It is not true, that they can`t have sex. Of course they can have sex. He never lost the soul because of the sex they had. That just happened to be some time before. It could actually have been several hours before, because they both fell a sleep and he only lost his soul after he woke up. He lost his soul because he then - after waking up - felt happiness. Not sexual satisfaction but a true moment of being close to another being. It is actually a lot like the moment, Spike and Buffy had in Touched - with no sex at all.

I also don`t buy, that he was talked in to it by Joyce. After all he was a more than 200 hundred years old master vampire. He surely had more years of experience, to look back upon, than Joyce, who, by the way, wasn`t a role model for happy relationships.

And I don`t buy the "He put her happiness above his own" reason. Him leaving her did not make her happy.

What has been mentioned here and is probably true, is, that she was torn back and forth between her desire for normality on the one hand and her love for Angel on the other hand. But she made a very clear decision on that one, when she told Angel - fully knowing, what she was choosing - "I want my life to be with you".

If you are looking for a legitimate reason, there are three, that have been mentioned in this thread, but unfortunately not given by him to Buffy on the show.

The first one is, that he is afraid, to loose control again, like he did, when he fed off her, and that he might hurt her. The second is, that he is afraid, he might get happy again - no matter how. And the third is, that he feels unworthy of her.

Every one of this reasons is legitimate. I believe, that their break-up would have been less traumatic for Buffy, if he had given her one of them. But obviously the writers needed to hurt Buffy as much as possible.....after all, this is BtVS and not Love-Boat 🙂

flow

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[Skanky Vamp]

I also don`t buy, that he was talked in to it by Joyce. After all he was a more than 200 hundred years old master vampire. He surely had more years of experience, to look back upon, than Joyce, who, by the way, wasn`t a role model for happy relationships.

What was all of those years of experience? As a human he was a whoring lay-about, as a vampire he was a scourge, and as a vampire with a soul he tried to hide from people and was a general dick. He had no experience to look back upon to see what normal was. The mayor planted the seed and Joyce fertilized it. That's the only answer that makes sense is that Joyce played him, period.

 

[Curious Pathos]

I have to admit that the reasons he gave for leaving her,annoyed me a lot, because I belong to those people, who have fertility issues. I remember, telling my now-husband about these issues on our third date. He could have backed off then. He decided not to. None of us ever looked back.

No, I never bought the children and marriage and normal life reasons. I didn`t even buy the daylight-dates reason. She is working nightshifts anyway.

It is not true, that they can`t have sex. Of course they can have sex. He never lost the soul because of the sex they had. That just happened to be some time before. It could actually have been several hours before, because they both fell a sleep and he only lost his soul after he woke up. He lost his soul because he then - after waking up - felt happiness. Not sexual satisfaction but a true moment of being close to another being. It is actually a lot like the moment, Spike and Buffy had in Touched - with no sex at all.

I also don`t buy, that he was talked in to it by Joyce. After all he was a more than 200 hundred years old master vampire. He surely had more years of experience, to look back upon, than Joyce, who, by the way, wasn`t a role model for happy relationships.

And I don`t buy the "He put her happiness above his own" reason. Him leaving her did not make her happy.

What has been mentioned here and is probably true, is, that she was torn back and forth between her desire for normality on the one hand and her love for Angel on the other hand. But she made a very clear decision on that one, when she told Angel - fully knowing, what she was choosing - "I want my life to be with you".

If you are looking for a legitimate reason, there are three, that have been mentioned in this thread, but unfortunately not given by him to Buffy on the show.

The first one is, that he is afraid, to loose control again, like he did, when he fed off her, and that he might hurt her. The second is, that he is afraid, he might get happy again - no matter how. And the third is, that he feels unworthy of her.

Every one of this reasons is legitimate. I believe, that their break-up would have been less traumatic for Buffy, if he had given her one of them. But obviously the writers needed to hurt Buffy as much as possible.....after all, this is BtVS and not Love-Boat 🙂

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Thank you; I almost felt very alone in my thoughts about his fertility issues. I firmly believe in the merits of adoptions, so the whole, I can't give you kids seemed really weird to me.

You're right about Joyce, not being the best role model for relationships, but I don't think Angel was necessarily was looking to her as a role model. I feel he just saw the mother of the woman he loved, speaking on Buffy's behalf, which she had not right to do [Buffy can speak for herself just fine] and in realty, she did not. The value he put on her advice is a vice of his own perception.

As for haaving a better role model, I cannot help but think about the Angelus flash back in Angel Season 5 Destiny, where he speaks to Spike in the aftermath of a wedding he destroyed. Is it possible that his memories of Angelus destroying couples could contribute to his view on the fraility of true love?

All in all, the curse seems to be the most legititmate reason, which I still remain shaky about due to the writing of his magnificently big dumb curse.

In reference to the break -up scene, I may not like how it is portrayed, but at least, it is part of his martyr complex. He really should have given her a better reason, but he gave the reason that would torture him the most, even if it did not make the most sense.

 

[NeonNightLight]

It is not true, that they can`t have sex. Of course they can have sex. He never lost the soul because of the sex they had. That just happened to be some time before. It could actually have been several hours before, because they both fell a sleep and he only lost his soul after he woke up. He lost his soul because he then - after waking up - felt happiness. Not sexual satisfaction but a true moment of being close to another being.

I don't understand this reasoning. Of course, the sex itself didn't cause him to lose his soul, I agree, but why risk it? That is so utterly selfish. Angelus isn't your typical vampire, he a cunning monster who wanted to cause the most chaos and pain possible. He tried to destroy the whole freaking world. Can you blame Angel for not wanting that to come about again, just so he, this one demonic being on Earth who shouldn't even be alive (from his POV), could continue being with the love of his life? It's permanently scarring. He could easily slip up, and by that I don't even mean by having sex with Buffy, but sharing a nice tender moment snuggling and lose his soul all over again. He knows that he reached perfect happiness with her, and because of that he can become a threat to her and the whole world. You don't have to agree with it, but it is understandable from Angel's point of view.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I don't understand this reasoning. Of course, the sex itself didn't cause him to lose his soul, I agree, but why risk it? That is so utterly selfish. Angelus isn't your typical vampire, he a cunning monster who wanted to cause the most chaos and pain possible. He tried to destroy the whole freaking world. Can you blame Angel for not wanting that to come about again, just so he, this one demonic being on Earth who shouldn't even be alive (from his POV), could continue being with the love of his life? It's permanently scarring. He could easily slip up, and by that I don't even mean by having sex with Buffy, but sharing a nice tender moment snuggling and lose his soul all over again. He knows that he reached perfect happiness with her, and because of that he can become a threat to her and the whole world. You don't have to agree with it, but it is understandable from Angel's point of view.

Exactly. Angel doesn't really understand his curse at this point, he is learning as he goes. Both he and Buffy have shown throughout Season 3 they are not comfortable getting physical because the last time that occurred brought Angelus and death. And as I said upstream, do you really think the two of them would be willing to risk having sex again knowing what happened last time - to test the limits of what exactly perfect happiness v. typical happiness is? It was not ALL about his curse but it played a significant role and his telling her he couldn't make love to her made it clear that this was one of the reasons for leaving.

 

[flow]

I don't see you disagreeing with me @NeonNightLight.It is not the sex, that leads him to loose the soul. It is the moment of happiness, that can be achieved by sex or by snuggling or by eating ice cream together. If he does not want to risk loosing his soul, he can' t eat icecream with her.

The legitimate reason therefore would not be "I want you to find someone you can make love to" but " I am afraid of loosing my soul again, as long as I am close to you"

That was, what I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.

Flow

 

[NeonNightLight]

The legitimate reason therefore would not be "I want you to find someone you can make love to" but " I am afraid of loosing my soul again, as long as I am close to you"

But Angel associates losing his soul with having sex with her, hence I can't make love to you because I don't want to risk it, in fact we both don't want to risk it, because Buffy was on board with not having sex either. He wants her to have the ability to have sex with someone without some curse hanging over them. Which is fair, because when you love someone, you don't want their experiences and opportunities to be restricted by you.

 

[Curious Pathos]

Which is fair, because when you love someone, you don't want their experiences and opportunities to be restricted by you.

But, any relationship requires compromise. No one fits perfectly together. There is always sacrifice, on both sides. If Buffy was willing to sacrifice sex for their relationship, it should be her choice to make. This is why I can't see "someone you can make love to" line as a reference to the curse. IMO, it really has nothing to do with what they can or can't do, but what choices he won't let her make for herself.

 

[PaulParmar1]

I really didn't like the way Angel left Buffy that was one of the reasons I hated Bangel in the 3rd season while I loved them together in the first 2 (pre angelus).
Were his reasons legitimate? Hmm it's debatable for sure. I think mostly his timing was bad. Telling her right before her prom. Not cool Angel .

 

[NeonNightLight]

If Buffy was willing to sacrifice sex for their relationship, it should be her choice to make. This is why I can't see "someone you can make love to" line as a reference to the curse. IMO, it really has nothing to do with what they can or can't do, but what choices he won't let her make for herself.

And if Angel wants to break up with her, that's not his choice to make? Buffy clearly has a healthy, high sex drive. We can see that with her relationships with Riley and Spike (although her attitude about sex becomes more twisted with him). If she stayed in a sexless relationship with Angel, she would clearly be missing out, and he saw that even if she didn't. Curse aside, sexual compatibility is pretty important for a relationship, and someone as young as Buffy should really have the opportunity to be in a relationship with that compatibility before deciding it doesn't matter.

 

[Curious Pathos]

And if Angel wants to break up with her, that's not his choice to make? Buffy clearly has a healthy, high sex drive. We can see that with her relationships with Riley and Spike (although her attitude about sex becomes more twisted with him). If she stayed in a sexless relationship with Angel, she would clearly be missing out, and he saw that even if she didn't. Curse aside, sexual compatibility is pretty important for a relationship, and someone as young as Buffy should really have the opportunity to be in a relationship with that compatibility before deciding it doesn't matter.

He has every right to break up with her. I still feel like she has the right to say if Angel is good enough for her or not, to say if her relationship with him was worth it for her or not, and to say if she wants to have a sexless relationship or not. All issues that I feel are brushed aside for this "I want whats best for you, and it isn't me" line, which acknowledges what she deserves, not what she chooses for herself.

 

[VisionGirl]

I keep thinking that his dream/nightmare (the wedding- where Buffy burns in the sun) has more to do with it than the things he tells her (of course Joyce gives him that extra "push"). Staying with her is a danger to her, even if he doesn't know what exactly that future danger is. So he articulates it the best he can, using the reasons she will understand. Her safety will always be his primary motivation, we see that in IWRY as well.

For me personally I keep thinking about what the Mayor says about difficult it was watching his beloved wife age, get sick, & die while he stayed young. He was faithful to her it seemed. While neither Buffy nor Angel seemed bothered by that, that is something that always bothered me when I think about these relationships. Not just the appearances of it, but how difficult that would be. Don't amy of them think about that? Anyway that's kind of just an aside.