Did Angel Leave Buffy for legitimate reasons?

[Curious Pathos]

For me personally, I keep thinking about what the Mayor says about difficult it was watching his beloved wife age, get sick, & die while he stayed young. He was faithful to her it seemed. While neither Buffy nor Angel seemed bothered by that, that is something that always bothered me when I think about these relationships. Not just the appearances of it, but how difficult that would be. Don't any of them think about that? Anyway, that's kind of just an aside.

My personal fanon: When a human and vampire love each other very much, they live lifetimes together. The human will grow old and die, causing the vampire to search for their beloved in the next life; where they fall in love with each other in a whole new way. Repeat 'til the end of time.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Everyone has given awesome explanations.

But the most simplistic one, when it comes right down to it is sometimes the best thing you can do for the person you love is to let them go.

He let her go because he thought he was holding her back. Idk why it needs further explanation.
I think what he did was a beautiful, heart-wrenching, selfless act.

 

[Curious Pathos]

He let her go because he thought he was holding her back. Idk why it needs further explanation.

Because the idea of him holding her back is debatable, and of course, how he does hold her back, if he does at all, are also in question.

But the most simplistic one, when it comes right down to it is sometimes the best thing you can do for the person you love is to let them go.

And, I know she eventually concedes that he was right to do so, but she did not want to be let go of, doesn't that idk mean something?

 

[RomanticSoul]

What dead-end relationships are you referring to?

Erm, the relationship you refer to in your topic question? I only see one.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Because the idea of him holding her back is debatable, and of course, how he does hold her back, if he does at all, are also in question.


And, I know she eventually concedes that he was right to do so, but she did not want to be let go of, doesn't that idk mean something?

Maybe it is debatable from a viewer's stand point.
But, from Angel's subjective stand point, he feels like he will hold her back in life. He could not live with being the reason Buffy settled. He wanted her to have everything she talked of in s1-3 (a normal life).

Sure, it means something. But, I believe she even knew deep down that this was going no where. She is the slayer (human) and he is a vampire (never ages). It was never going to be feasible.
Not sure why she lost sight of this with Spike, but that's a different subject matter all in itself.

 

[EarthLogic]

I feel like it was mis-written (is that a word?) because the writers were kind of desperate for reasons to pull them apart. They actually had a good partnership going by the second half of S3 and logically speaking, the sunshine and babies stuff is feeble. If I was Buffy I'd have run after him with a list of counter-arguments and a research file of ways to get his curse fixed.

R.e. the Curse - yes it's not about sex, but about being with Buffy. Remember the determiner for perfect happiness 'bliss' as far as the curse trigger is concerned is that Angel experiences a moment where his soul 'no longer plagues his thoughts' (Uncle Enyos). It happened the first time after sex with Buffy because for once in his life Angel felt perfectly content, loved and accepted by someone he loved more than anything. I think the physical pleasure of sex may have also contributed towards it even if it wasn't the actual trigger, simply because physical relaxation almost always helps mental relaxation. So being with Buffy in any way that causes him to forget his troubles is the triggering factor. Had Angel stayed, there were potentially two ways it could happen: 1) their physical desires get the better of them, and in the sheer pleasure of intimacy with Buffy Angel is again overwhelmed and forgets his worries or b) just being happy and enjoying life with her causes enough contentment at one point to break the curse. This is the factor the writers should have emphasised, along with the reawakening of his bloodlust in Graduation Day - IMO the more immediate threat and one which understandably would terrify Angel. It would also be something that Buffy would not be able to fully understand since she has no way of knowing or experiencing Angel's internal struggle with his demon outside of what she can see for herself or what he tells her. This would have given Angel's argument a bit more strength.

I maintain that another convincing element is the way Angel sees himself as defined by his separateness from the human world - a world which Buffy is very much a part of. I think it would be harsh to simply blame or berate Angel for feeling this way since it's understandable why. He's come a long way since S1 but at the end of S3 he's still very much a work-in-progress and feelings of self-worth can't just be expected to materialise on demand. I think the driving factor of Angel's insistence on a 'normal' life for Buffy is that he fundamentally sees himself as a being without a future. He detests his immortality because for him it means stasis - an existence with no change. Buffy will change but he wouldn't be a part of that: he won't be able to change with her. This anxiety is what the Mayor taps into. It's only when he has Connor that he allows himself to contemplate a future because for the first time there are milestones - human milestones - which he can work towards and measure his life by. This is what marks difference between the two series - Buffy was always about hitting those milestones, whereas AtS was concerned with the messiness of living in the adult world. The transition from teenhood to your early twenties is about growing up, but adulthood is in some ways about the struggle to keep adulting. Angel was already an adult but his immortality meant that he ostensibly couldn't even work towards those normal milestones, which paradoxically made the Sisyphean metaphors and character backslides on the show all the more fitting. (I'm not sure what my point is now, but there is a relevant point somewhere in the above ramble).

I do wonder though whether the reasons Angel gave were the result of the writers (clumsily) trying to make a firm statement about the impossibility of a vampire-human/slayer relationship for the sake of the show? We know that Joss hadn't initially been keen on the vampire romance angle and even though what they did with it elevated the show tremendously, perhaps he didn't want to make it a long-term or definitive aspect going forward? Spuffy wasn't even a thing at that point (didn't James say somewhere that Joss told him outright at one point 'no more vampire romances'?) and Joss is even on record in the 'Surprise' DVD commentary "he's exactly the wrong guy for her; she's a vampire slayer, he's a vampire" so outlining the differences between Buffy and Angel was perhaps intended to put a firm lid on that trope once he left? This is all just speculation on my part btw - I have absolutely no evidence for it. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Curious Pathos]

Maybe it is debatable from a viewer's standpoint.
But, I believe she even knew deep down that this was going nowhere. She is the slayer (human) and he is a vampire (never ages). It was never going to be feasible.

The way I see it. Buffy is the equivalent of a terminally ill person [she has an expiration date] and Angel is the equivalent of a healthy individual whose expected to have a long life; therefore, if a terminally ill person and a healthy person can be together in real life, then, why can't Buffy and Angel be together in fiction?

Also:

My personal fanon: When a human and vampire love each other very much, they live lifetimes together. The human will grow old and die, causing the vampire to search for their beloved in the next life; where they fall in love with each other in a whole new way. Repeat 'til the end of time.

 

[EarthLogic]

The way I see it. Buffy is the equivalent of a terminally ill person [she has an expiration date] and Angel is the equivalent of a healthy individual whose expected to have a long life

Well that's one I've never heard before!

herefore, if a terminally ill person and a healthy person can be together in real life, then, why can't Buffy and Angel be together in fiction?

Because Joss is EVIL!

 

[brinkster130]

And, I know she eventually concedes that he was right to do so, but she did not want to be let go of, doesn't that idk mean something?

It means she’s sad about the breakup/situation. I really don’t think Buffy wants a boyfriend who sticks around only because she wants him around; she wants someone who wants to be with her. At this point we’re told that Angel absolutely believes he can’t be the boyfriend Buffy deserves and because of that he breaks up with her....sounds like a recipe for resentment and trouble if he sticks around despite his feelings.

 

[BuffyBot22]

The way I see it. Buffy is the equivalent of a terminally ill person [she has an expiration date] and Angel is the equivalent of a healthy individual whose expected to have a long life; therefore, if a terminally ill person and a healthy person can be together in real life, then, why can't Buffy and Angel be together in fiction?

Also:

But that's not what is happening here. We have a human and a vampire. Though Buffy has the possibility of an early expiration date, she nor Angel really know exactly when she is going to die. She may live long enough to have what she wants out of life. She may live long enough to get married, to have a family, to grow old with someone. With Angel, none of this can happen. He can see that, she could not in the moment. But she knew he was right. And just because she knows he is right, it doesn't mean it hurts any less, or make her want him any less than before. It's just that she understands that they have to try to move on.
People IRL who are in love, break up all the time over things similar to this. Like one partner wants kids and the other doesn't. They love each other, but they know the only way to not wind up with resentment and to also get what they want out of life they have to let each other go. (I think this is a much closer analogy to what is going on here)

 

[flow]

But the most simplistic one, when it comes right down to it is sometimes the best thing you can do for the person you love is to let them go.

You can only let someone go, if he or she wants to go.

or b) just being happy and enjoying life with her causes enough contentment at one point to break the curse. This is the factor the writers should have emphasised, along with the reawakening of his bloodlust in Graduation Day - IMO the more immediate threat and one which understandably would terrify Angel.

I completely agree with that and think, that maybe the evil writers made Angel give all the wrong reasons to make it harder for Buffy.

As for haaving a better role model, I cannot help but think about the Angelus flash back in Angel Season 5 Destiny, where he speaks to Spike in the aftermath of a wedding he destroyed. Is it possible that his memories of Angelus destroying couples could contribute to his view on the fraility of true love?

As you have mentioned this scene, I think it is possible, he believed that he did not deserve to be in a happy relationship with Buffy because Angelus had destroyed other happy relationships. That would be another legitimate reason for him to leave her.

Like one partner wants kids and the other doesn't. They love each other, but they know the only way to not wind up with resentment and to also get what they want out of life they have to let each other go.

My husband and I both wanted to have kids, but I was the one who couldn`t have any (more). Are you seriously telling me, that I have to break up with him ?

flow

 

[Mylie]

My husband and I both wanted to have kids, but I was the one who couldn`t have any (more). Are you seriously telling me, that I have to break up with him ?

flow

I understand that this is a sensitive issue and how it can taint the relationship (or that scene) for you but it's really only 1 element of why they broke up. I don't think it would have been a factor if it hadn't been 1 of many things that made the relationship non-viable to him.

But no, I don't think anyone is saying it's a reason to break up with someone in itself. But everyone deals with things differently and Angel saw it as yet another thing he couldn't give her (and that list is not small).

Really, if there's one reason that sums up why Angel broke up with Buffy is that he didn't think he was enough for her. I don't see how you can keep being in a relationship when you feel that way.

 

[BuffyBot22]

You can only let someone go, if he or she wants to go.



I completely agree with that and think, that maybe the evil writers made Angel give all the wrong reasons to make it harder for Buffy.



As you have mentioned this scene, I think it is possible, he believed that he did not deserve to be in a happy relationship with Buffy because Angelus had destroyed other happy relationships. That would be another legitimate reason for him to leave her.



My husband and I both wanted to have kids, but I was the one who couldn`t have any (more). Are you seriously telling me, that I have to break up with him ?

flow

Wow, you took that completely out of context. If you had actually read what I said, was that when one partner WANTS children and the other partner DOES NOT want children, they tend to break it off because together one of them isn't going to get what they want. One will either be denied of having a child they wanted or one will have to be a parent to a child they never wanted.

When two people in a relationship both want children, and one cannot physically have them, no one should be broken up with. Plenty of other options: surrogate, adoption, fostering.

 

[EarthLogic]

But that's not what is happening here. We have a human and a vampire. Though Buffy has the possibility of an early expiration date, she nor Angel really know exactly when she is going to die. She may live long enough to have what she wants out of life. She may live long enough to get married, to have a family, to grow old with someone. With Angel, none of this can happen. He can see that, she could not in the moment. But she knew he was right. And just because she knows he is right, it doesn't mean it hurts any less, or make her want him any less than before. It's just that she understands that they have to try to move on.
People IRL who are in love, break up all the time over things similar to this. Like one partner wants kids and the other doesn't. They love each other, but they know the only way to not wind up with resentment and to also get what they want out of life they have to let each other go. (I think this is a much closer analogy to what is going on here)

My husband and I both wanted to have kids, but I was the one who couldn`t have any (more). Are you seriously telling me, that I have to break up with him ?

I think the fact that we're all finding it difficult to come up with real-world analogies to this may just prove my point about the writers being desperate to emphasise the impossibility of the vampire-human/slayer relationship in order to end the use of that particular fantasy trope in the show. Is anyone able to dig up interviews or commentaries where this may have been addressed? We're all the objections brought up in this thread ever put to the writers? I'm curious to know.

Plenty of other options: surrogate, adoption, fostering.

None of which would be available to Angel since he's technically dead and legally doesn't exist.

 

[flow]

Really, if there's one reason that sums up why Angel broke up with Buffy is that he didn't think he was enough for her. I don't see how you can keep being in a relationship when you feel that way.

I hope, that I am not being misunderstood. This is exactly, what I think.

One will either be denied of having a child they wanted or one will have to be a parent to a child they never wanted.

As it was, I already had a child from an earlier relationship, whereas my husband did not have one. Wasn`t I holding him back ? Denying him, what he wanted and I already had ? Wouldn`t it have been a beautiful, heart-wrenching. selfless act of me, to let him go ?

Plenty of other options

Yep. Life always offers you options. Even for Angel. As S3 of AtS shows us.

flow

 

[Curious Pathos]

Plenty of other options: surrogate, adoption, fostering.

None of which would be available to Angel since he's technically dead and legally doesn't exist.

Angel could falsify papers; I'm sure he had to do that to own the Angel Investigation office [Angel season 1] and later, to buy the Hyperion Hotel. Even still, Buffy can still go to a sperm bank.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I hope, that I am not being misunderstood. This is exactly, what I think.



As it was, I already had a child from an earlier relationship, whereas my husband did not have one. Wasn`t I holding him back ? Denying him, what he wanted and I already had ? Wouldn`t it have been a beautiful, heart-wrenching. selfless act of me, to let him go ?



Yep. Life always offers you options. Even for Angel. As S3 of AtS shows us.

flow

This is a fantasy world. Vampires should not be able to procreate or grow old. Somehow Angel & Darla were able to (because it's fantasy).

Sure Buffy and Angel could adopt, but it would be really weird that their kid will be 60 one day while Angel still looks 27. That would be super confusing and something that would never happen IRL. The point is that he's a vampire and she isn't. So he would be holding her back from the normalcy she longed for (at least in seasons 1-4). He doesn't want to live with that (pretty simple).

I'm really getting tired of you completely twisting my words and mocking my statement. Your situation is completely different because it is real life and if you both wanted children and one of you is sterile, that is by no means a reason to let each other go. You can find other ways to have a family.
Now, if you just flat out did not want children and your husband did, then yeah letting him go would be noble. But that's not the case here.

If you continue to twist my words, I'm not going to be able to have a conversation with you.

 

[crazysoulless]

I think at the time Angel had very good reasons for leaving but once his outlook changed he should've come back to Buffy a lot sooner than End of Days/Chosen.

Buffy was his link to humanity. Buffy was his life's mission. Buffy was his salvation. Buffy was who the Powers That Be guided into his life. Buffy was his happiness.

Buffy was his first love. Buffy was his first real girlfriend. Buffy was the only person he had yet to truly love. Buffy was the hope he held on to for 100 years as he suffered and fought in Hell.

That is a lot to put onto one person and one relationship.

He showed signs throughout BtVS s1-3 that he didn't think he was worthy of her. That he believed it was selfish to put his need and desire for her above everything she deserves and could have without him.

"I did a lot of thinking today. I really can't be around you. Because when I am.... when I am all I can ever think about is how badly I want to kiss you. I'm older than you, and this can't ever....I better go. I should....." --- s1, Angel

"Look, this can't....I just gotta....I gotta walk away from this." -- s1, Angel

"I knew this was gonna happen. You don't know what you're doing. You don't know what you want. Listen, if we date you and I both know one thing's gonna lead to another. I'm just tryin to protect you. This could get outta control. This isn't some fairytale. When I kiss you, you don't wake up from a deep sleep and live happily ever after." -- s2, Reptile Boy

"I just want you to be able to have some kind of normal life. We can never have that, don't you see? It's over. It has to be! It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what I feel." -- s2, I Only Have Eyes For You

"I've been thinking....about our future. And the more I do, the more I feel like us, you and me being together, is unfair to you. You deserve more. You deserve something outside of demons and darkness. You should be with someone who can take you into the light. Someone who can make love to you...And children...You have no idea how fast it all goes, Buffy. Before you know it, you'll want it all, a normal life. Right, you'll always be a Slayer. But that's all the more reason why you should have a real relationship instead of this freak show. I'm sorry. Buffy, you know how much I love you. It kills me to say this....I'm trying to do what's right here, okay? I'm trying to think with my head instead of my heart." -- s3, Prom

He decided to become a person, reenter the world, because he knew what her life as a Slayer, engulfed within and without by so much darkness, would do to her, and he wanted to keep her heart warm and her light shining, to preserve her humanity as she restored his faith in it.

He never intended to be more than her helper in the fight, guardian angel living in the periphery of her life, ready to be there when she requires. He didn't want to steal her innocence, break her heart, traumatize her, or make her life harder. Angel felt what Spike said to Buffy in Touched, "When I tell you that I love you, it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try."

Angel: I'll never hurt her.
First Evil: You were born to hurt her. Have you learned nothing? As long as you are alive....
Angel: Then I'll die.

He thought she was every bit a fairytale princess but that he would always be a beast regardless of how much he wanted to be her Prince charming. She made him feel empathy and love and brought out his personality and awoke parts of his soul he didn't know existed. But it wasn't until the Shanshu prophecy he believed he could transform completely. "I can walk like a man but I'm not one." "Buffy will always be a part of me and that's never going to change. But she's human and I'm....not, and that's also never going to change."

In Beauty & the Beast, the reckless child turned miserable monster just had to find love and be loved in return to break the spell, to give her up to get her. Angel had done that and it wasn't enough. It took becoming a champion and learning how to do what she does to make him worthy.

He became defender of a city, like her.
He became leader of a group, like her.
He patrolled alone at night, like her.
He protected the innocent, like her.
He formed friendships, like her.
He formed a found family, like her.
He became a single parent, like her.

But somewhere along discovering his moral center and realizing his purpose and gaining confidence, he forgot it didn't work with Buffy because he had yet to be this person. A convertible driving, hotel owning, businessman raising a bratty kid alongside friends and comrades.

In AtS he tried to give Cordy everything he denied Buffy. She was the same age, mortal, had the same profession, visions, part demon, learning martial arts, friends with a British watcher, living in LA.

He substituted his literal soul mate for a friend who he saw as a replica of her. That was so disrespectful and messed up. At least when Buffy started to do the same with another souled vampire it was the result of several years of stalking, psychological manipulation, harassment, and sexual assault. And even then she fought it tooth and nail and didn't realize Angel was an option (he left, the ball was in his court) until he showed up ready to be with her again.
 
You see it throughout BtVS s1, he is more in the world than he has been in decades but he's still in the shadows. Choosing to be part of Buffy's life meant a huge glow up (homeless to hottie) but he still kept their interactions sporadic and formal, albeit flirty. "Angel? I can just see him in a relationship. Hi, honey. You're in grave danger. I'll see you next month."

Buffy accepted him. "I want my life to be with you." "You're the one freaky thing in my freaky world that makes sense." He had yet to accept himself. He delayed revealing he was a vampire. He had to be reassured of her love before confessing his evil past. He flinched when she tried to touch his face while he was bumpy. He was jealous of Xander for getting to hang out with her in daylight.

But he was getting there. He staked Darla. He told her about the Romani tribe and killing his own family. He kissed her in vamp face. He showed his romantic side and how vulnerable he felt. He initiated their ice skating and movie dates. He patrolled with her, slept in bed, kissed, held her hand, trained together, placed a ring on her finger.

There are so many comparisons to Doyle & Harry but there is a huge difference. Doyle thought Harry would live fully as a human in the human world, that he was the entirety of her involvement with demons. But Angel knew Buffy lived half in light and half in darkness. She would always be connected to demons, be part demon herself. He just didn't want her to forgo the best half for him. "When you kiss me I want to die." "When I look into the future, all I see is you. All I want is you " "This is how we're going to spend our nights when I'm 50 and you're the same age you are now."

I think it was Angel causing Buffy pain (Angelus, Acathla, kissing Faith, feeding on her) that tipped the scales. He didn't know how to prevent it and couldn't see a future with her unless he was sure he'd never hurt her again.

It's why he gave up humanity in IWRY but worked hard for the Shanshu. It had to be earned and proven right by a higher source than his yearning to be with her again. He could trust divine forgiveness.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

We were talking about the logic of Angel the character, not Angel the show. His in-canon reasons, do you see them as logically legitimate reasons? If so, then how?

The Scoobies are going to die young (Tara, Cordie, Anya, Doyle, Fred, Gunn, Wes). Buffy is going to die young. The latter has never been disputed, from the beginning of the series. The Immortal Beloved argument, where a eternally youthful Angel is forced to watch Buffy die to old age is not a factor. There is no happy ending for Angel and Buffy, so they should make the next few years... memorable. (This is assuming, that they don't know that Buffy is fated to end the Old Ones' influence on this world, and Angel is fated to walk again as a man. Sure, when that happens, married before the sun sets.)

 

[spikenbuffy]

Yes of course and he's right