Dark Willow and Redeemability

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The best understanding of this situation has always been from Andrew. This is Darth Rosenberg, Willow has chosen the path of the dark side, she is now a slave of her fear, anger and hate, she was seduced by the promise of power, only to have been lied to and received suffering. It's a terrible take on Dark Phoneix saga, it's an excellent take on Star Wars.

So yes, she is irredeemable, on her own merit, she deserves to end up like Catherine Madison, to have her magic backfire on her and to spend eternity as the slave of some elder thing, to be in the same state she saw Buffy in at the start of the season.

But it's not really about her, it's about Xander. His ability to love is what saves the day. The question must then be, does her Penance in S6 and S7 demonstrate sufficient remorse? Has she embraced the right handed path? Does she only use her talents for the greater good?

 

[NoShip]

I think if you can class Angel as redeemable and Spike & Faith then why not Willow? They all did unspeakable things due to darkness inside them forced onto them or by situations. Willow was in unspeakable pain and let the darkness swallow her whole. She drowned in the dark magic and needed saving as at the core I don't believe her to be an "Evil" person and it is the supernatural we are talking about.

If you ever hold each character morally accountable for what each did, the show falls apart. Moral accountability was never on the table.

 

[garfan]

If you ever hold each character morally accountable for what each did, the show falls apart. Moral accountability was never on the table.

to much metaphor, not enough lore to examine the actual moral complexities of the show. And we found out the showrunners were EXTREMELY flawed individuals

 

[NotASlayer]

did not say they were perfect, just redeemable. Yes, Giles made horrible mistakes and I have issues with his choices too... Sadly, ASH needed to make the choices he made for his family, so Giles vanished from the landscape kind of abruptly and the writers did not handle his leaving in a reasonable way. Given that ASH is now gone, I'm glad he got to spend time with his family.

Everyone was redeemable.

Well, maybe not Andrew.

😀

But that's coloured by the fact I really, really hate Andrew.

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone could have made Willow make different choices. She was making world threatening choices back in season 4. She was ARROGANT. Arrogance (pride) is one of the deadly sins for a reason.

It's not so much "all the way back" as Giles had left her alone for four seasons already. What he should have done, instead of leaving Willow alone with magic, was, all the way back in season 2 if not season 1, he should have introduced her to the coven. He knew he couldn't teach her, he knew the consequences and he knew people who could, and did, help.

Out of universe, this is because the coven was not invented until late in season six. In universe, it makes Giles look like uncaring and dangerously incompetent. Again, the garbage writing of the last two seasons.

It's so hard to blame this on Giles as a character, because his writing was so bad in the last two seasons, but he really should have done more. While I don't think that every bad decision Willow made with magic was Giles's fault, it seems inconceivable that he left town when Willow was so clearly going down a dark path. You make a great point about the coven; if Giles 1) had bad experiences with magic and 2) knew people who could help, why would he just leave Willow to spiral? Clearly in the show's canon there are good witches and healthy ways to learn magic, but no one significantly tried to intervene other than Tara, and it even took a couple of seasons for her to speak up about it.

And maybe I'm misunderstanding what happened there, but why did he think that casting a spell to make Willow experience all the pain of people in the world would make her calm down or become more reasonable?

***
I am wondering, what are either of your opinions of the level of control Willow had when she was corrupted by the magic? Do you think that the corruption or the height of emotions triggered by the dark magic she took in make her any less responsible for what she was doing?

See above about the bad writing. 😀

By the time Willow was corrupted by the magic, she wasn't Willow. If she is responsible, then Spike is responsible for every bad thing he did as a vampire, something he chose to do. It's impossible to say "it's not Spike's fault, he was possessed by a demon" without also going "it's not Willow's fault, she had been taken over by dark magic." In fact, she was even less in her right mind by this point than Spike ever was.

Also, as a member of the rainbow tribe, I really hate the statements the last two seasons make about LGBTQ+ people.
1) lesbians aren't nice people. they do horrid things to their friends and they are unrepentant and arrogant.
2) kill your gays. The old hollowwood trope that the only good gay person is a dead person? yeah, NO. NO. NO.
3) punish bad behaviour by killing a gay person to punish the 'bad' gay person.
4) It is OK for lesbians to exploit other lesbians. They can get away with things that straight people would not... oh and lesbians aren't nice people.

I find the last two seasons homophobic, season six blatantly so. And let's not forget Andrew; closet gay and horrible person.

Yes, and look at the horrible consequences of their choices. I'm not clear that they knew fully the consequences as Darla did, but it is indisputable that their actions had a huge toll in broken lives and dead bodies, probably by the hundreds or even thousands.

Darla, and Dru, are the two I have the most sympathy for. Darla was dying, and was being treated even worse than women already were. Dru had been driven nuts. Neither Liam nor William had those excuses. Both were born into wealth, I'd judge Liam even more so than William, both were already better off than almost everyone, and, not a minor point, both were men so already had a major leg up, both chose monsterhood.

 

[quillandfang]

The best understanding of this situation has always been from Andrew. This is Darth Rosenberg, Willow has chosen the path of the dark side, she is now a slave of her fear, anger and hate, she was seduced by the promise of power, only to have been lied to and received suffering. It's a terrible take on Dark Phoneix saga, it's an excellent take on Star Wars.

I really enjoy the Star Wars comparison, it really makes a lot of sense. "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." It's interesting to compare Dark Willow to a character like Vader who committed many evil deeds but eventually turned away from the Dark Side in the end. I really like how you put this!

But it's not really about her, it's about Xander. His ability to love is what saves the day. The question must then be, does her Penance in S6 and S7 demonstrate sufficient remorse? Has she embraced the right handed path? Does she only use her talents for the greater good?

I would say sort of? But not entirely. In season 7 she mostly uses her powers for the greater good (sensing the coming evil, the slayer spell), but I don't think her penance in s6 and 7 demonstrates sufficient remorse. As I mentioned previously, all of her magical rehab was shown off screen and was depicted more as bringing the magic under control than reflecting on her actions. And when she got back to Sunnydale she just... started using magic again? She definitely had the potential for redemption and is redeemable in my opinion, but it wasn't executed sufficiently.

Also regarding Xander, I really do love his role in stopping Willow. I felt his character arc was all over the place for several seasons before this, and him playing such a crucial role as the only "normal" member of their group helped to reestablish the Scoobies in my eyes, even though the other characters probably should've been more upset with Willow for longer. Anyways side tangent.

It's not so much "all the way back" as Giles had left her alone for four seasons already. What he should have done, instead of leaving Willow alone with magic, was, all the way back in season 2 if not season 1, he should have introduced her to the coven. He knew he couldn't teach her, he knew the consequences and he knew people who could, and did, help.

Out of universe, this is because the coven was not invented until late in season six. In universe, it makes Giles look like uncaring and dangerously incompetent. Again, the garbage writing of the last two seasons.

100% agree! Giles mentioned his negative experiences with magic early on, so as soon as Willow started showing significant power in season 2 he should have done something to help. Willow never had a magical mentor like witches and magical characters in other media do, and that ended up being a huge problem. Because power like that inherently requires responsibility and ethics, and Willow went straight to doing magic and skipped over that aspect, probably because she was confident she could handle those moral choices on her own.

By the time Willow was corrupted by the magic, she wasn't Willow. If she is responsible, then Spike is responsible for every bad thing he did as a vampire, something he chose to do. It's impossible to say "it's not Spike's fault, he was possessed by a demon" without also going "it's not Willow's fault, she had been taken over by dark magic." In fact, she was even less in her right mind by this point than Spike ever was.

This is an interesting point because I kind of do hold Spike responsible for some of what he did as a vampire? Though the vampire lore in Buffy is quite inconsistent and perhaps I feel that way because there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between ensouled and soulless Spike.

 

[NotASlayer]

This is an interesting point because I kind of do hold Spike responsible for some of what he did as a vampire? Though the vampire lore in Buffy is quite inconsistent and perhaps I feel that way because there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between ensouled and soulless Spike.

Inconsistency, thy name is Spike. Too many contortions were done to keep him around that it did, as I believe JM himself stated could happen, end up destroying a lot of vampire lore.

I also hold Spike responsible, especially as he himself felt absolutely no guilt for anything he had done to anyone until well into Angel S5. Compared to Angel, who felt huge remorse for everything he had done, souled Spike comes across in S7 as a narcissistic sociopath. After all, a soul does not make someone good or moral.

It's not uncommon for magic of any kind to be corrupting in fantasy, and myth, and often when that happens the person is considered to not be the same person any longer. Even more so than vampires, who are in fact based on the person they used to be (according to Angel in Dopplegangland); I would say the person they could be with all inhibitions lifted.

 

[NotASlayer]

@quillandfang It is probably noteworthy that this separation occurred in Angel, which, despite being technically part of the same universe, had elements of its mythology that didn't match up with Buffy. I never really considered this to be literal, though, more a metaphor. The fights in the mind weren't actually between Angel and Angelus, but between his good and bad, er, angels.

@garfan Yes, as I said, having a soul doesn't make you good, despite what S7 tried to claim. However, Angel was clearly struggling and eventually spent a century suffering from this. Spike, on the other hand, merely got slightly nutty in a basement for a couple of weeks, never regretted anything and was fine after. Now, out of universe, this was because a genuine portrayal of regret would have meant no Spike on the show; yet another case where keeping Spike around on Buffy destroyed the show's mythology.

 

[hoponlilmama]

he cast a spell to connect her with the emotions of the world. To remind her there was still love and beauty in the world even without Tara. But in her state of mind she only noticed the negative. This is why I have always viewed Dark Willow as suicidal. She chooses to try to kill everyone because they feel so similar to how she felt and that's what she was going to do with herself

I'd have to agree here. This is backed up by Willow's statement after she's followed the decoy Warren on the bus, where she tells Xander and Buffy that "I'm not coming back".

Post automatically merged: Sep 13, 2026

Both Angel and Spike showed real penitence. no, Spike did not show it the way Angel did, but he also CHOSE the soul, so i think in a way he had an easier time KNOWING it was going to suck to some degree.

Spike went for a soul to impress a woman. Which he literally tells us in s7 ("The soul, the changes it's what you wanted!"). He didn't get it to be good or to redeem himself as a man and do good in the world.

He knew Buffy loves Angel and he figured that the only way she might love him is to be like him.


As for the original subject: Willow I think is redeemable. Not that I excuse what she did or her cruelty in s6 after she goes all veiny, but she was hurting, and combined with her being on a slippery slope with the dark magics that likely lingered in her system, sent her over the edge.

The issue was it wasn't properly explored in s7. It was more about her being scared of losing control if using magic.

 

[garfan]

@garfan Yes, as I said, having a soul doesn't make you good, despite what S7 tried to claim. However, Angel was clearly struggling and eventually spent a century suffering from this. Spike, on the other hand, merely got slightly nutty in a basement for a couple of weeks, never regretted anything and was fine after. Now, out of universe, this was because a genuine portrayal of regret would have meant no Spike on the show; yet another case where keeping Spike around on Buffy destroyed the show's mythology.

Okay, but Spike's couple of weeks in the basement all the way up to the end of season 5 of Angel all fall within Angel's period staying with the other three when he was first ensouled. He didn't go live in an alley immediately. In fact later retcons would reveal that period only lasted around 20 years

 

[NotASlayer]

Okay, but Spike's couple of weeks in the basement all the way up to the end of season 5 of Angel all fall within Angel's period staying with the other three when he was first ensouled. He didn't go live in an alley immediately. In fact later retcons would reveal that period only lasted around 20 years

That's another issue that Angel especially caused; retconning what was already known about Angel. But we do know that Angel was having issues during that period and we do know that Spike literally didn't give a damn about repentance (not quite the exact words, but to that effect). It took seeing Hell with a soul and getting his hands chopped off for Spike to start changing, otherwise he would have continued the same old narcissistic way.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Vampire Decency: When a Lion wants to go to the watering hole, it will hold it's tail high and saunder in. The hoofstock will move away, but won't run, and the lions will drink their fill without triggering a stampede. I would entertain that vamps can behave between thirst or during the daytime hours, and that killing indiscriminately was largely the Master's personal doctrine.

I would also note, that with the chip in place, Spike was the omega male, and the demon could understand how to act around your superiors, even if they were human. I mean, a vampire employed by a Necromancer wouldn't kill the necromancer at first opportunity. I think that would probably be the key, Spike isn't behaving. He's just a monkey performing a trick to get a treat, and we are anthropomorphizing him.

 

[garfan]

Re: Vampire Decency: When a Lion wants to go to the watering hole, it will hold it's tail high and saunder in. The hoofstock will move away, but won't run, and the lions will drink their fill without triggering a stampede. I would entertain that vamps can behave between thirst or during the daytime hours, and that killing indiscriminately was largely the Master's personal doctrine.

vamps like Russell Winters or the vamps in the suckhouse

 

[BuffyElevated]

Nowhere in the narrative do we ever see Willow truly penitent. She was sorry for herself. Sorry for being caught. Ashamed for how her friends viewed her. Desired to make them not angry... but as soon as she was in a situation where life didn't go according to plan, she started mind raping her friends... even after being caught.

Plenty of people lose the love of their lives and they don't go out and murder the people who were responsible... and yeah, I'm speaking from personal experience. It sucks to lose someone you can't live without. It never stops sucking. It doesn't give you the right to give into all your urges... and anyone who tells you that having your loved one murdered or killed by someone (even accidentally) doesn't put you in a rage at that person is lying. Adulthood, morality and being HUMAN is a choice. One that Willow repeatedly does NOT make.

The rules DO apply to you, Willow. No matter how powerful you are.

She wanted to enslave Oz... to force him to stay. This was NOT a moral or reasonable choice. Did he run in fear over facing his own demon? yes. Was it fun? no. Does that give her any right to force him to come back... or try? NEVER.

What actually happened with her magics was PLANET and reality threatening. in a WORD she could have ended the world... just as easily as she brought Amy back, then sent her back to rat-ness WITHOUT EVEN NOTICING!

Willow was the stupidest smart person ever. She honestly believed her way was the right one AND that her desire trumped everyone's will. That is EVIL. You know who else thinks and ACTS that way? Despots. dictators. megalomaniac cult leaders. mass murderers. Children who pull the wings off insects because they can.

She never learned the basic ideas of responsibility or accountability. She became more powerful over time and loved it enough to threaten Giles when he confronted her. MAYBE after she did the white magic slayer activation, that purified her... but at no time before that do i see her as someone who could be presumed good, honourable or decent... because she was too busy feeling sorry for herself to take responsibility for herself. The Gnarl only happened b/c of her self-centered fear. Same is true with Amy's spell on her. For it to turn her into Warren... she had to embrace his warped world view.

Funny thing? She was wilful from the first season. Hacking is not lawful. She showed herself to be wilful, self-centered, self-pitying and vindictive. Did some of those she was vindictive to deserve consequences? Probably. But the fact that her first response was fundamentally dishonest and vindictive? That's telling. Her 'relationship' with 'Malcolm' showed some of the same attitude... but THAT i will give her a partial pass for because he was a pass master at manipulation.

Nope, not my favourite person.

This is how I feel about Willow. The more times I rewatch the show, the more I despise her character post Season 3. Once she gets into magic, she morphs into this arrogant, selfish person who uses magic over and over again to harm her friends and loved ones. It's crazy 'cause I used to love Willow so much but as an adult, my perspective has shifted so much and I can't stand her anymore once we get to the later seasons.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

vamps like Russell Winters or the vamps in the suckhouse

What's worth remembering is that Vampires, as demons, fancy themselves as false gods*, and should be very happy to receive gifts and understand the promise of future gifts. That is, propitiation.

But yeah, any future incarnation of Buffy should keep vampires evil, but not unreasonable brutes. This will be more important if Sarah is involved. Keeping fisticuffs to a minimum while relying on scheming is a good way to tell stories without 10 hours of fight choreography.

*To be an true god, you have to claim some tie to ultimate reality. A Fae who wants free stuff not to kill you is just a extortionist.

 

[wolfheart]

You all going very deep with this subject and thats a good thing, the only thing i know willow was very sad and wanted revenge for the death of her companion.
It was hard to see her like this way( same when Buffy was back from the death) i know its not always flowers and sunshine but these where dark episodes.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I already made a post about this but the main reason why I don’t like her is because she slept in her dead friend’s dead MOM’S bed! Who does that?

 

[silvermoon]

I can't quite agree that they were punishing members of the LGBTQ community, so to speak, by having Willow go all dark and by killing off Tara. I think it was simply a juicy opportunity, because Willow was the dutiful geek - the computer nerd - and she became a witch long before she met Tara or was "gay" (to me, bi). So to have her be the big bad was just too good a premise for the writers, I think. To have one of the scoobies go ballistic is sort of classic. And it kind of makes sense it would be her. The catalyst seems more like she always felt mousy and like a nothing, so to have her do something so out of character - go nuts because Tara was dead - was definitely shocking. Or so I recall from the speech she gave Buffy while they were fighting in six.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I can't quite agree that they were punishing members of the LGBTQ community, so to speak, by having Willow go all dark and by killing off Tara. I think it was simply a juicy opportunity, because Willow was the dutiful geek - the computer nerd - and she became a witch long before she met Tara or was "gay" (to me, bi). So to have her be the big bad was just too good a premise for the writers, I think. To have one of the scoobies go ballistic is sort of classic. And it kind of makes sense it would be her. The catalyst seems more like she always felt mousy and like a nothing, so to have her do something so out of character - go nuts because Tara was dead - was definitely shocking. Or so I recall from the speech she gave Buffy while they were fighting in six.

I don't know that it was the intent. More that the blind spot about what it would mean was alive and well. the old ideas crowded out common sense. They saw killing Tara as a good move... because Joss told them so. There was so much about Willow by the time she was out playing with reality at the Bronze that the coven could have justified taking her into custody... or trying... and she could have lost her nut if a bunch of strange witches showed up 'threatening' her autonomy. Even having Buffy get shot as it happened would have been enough for someone as brittle as she was to go after Warren... particularly if Tara was injured and the doctors took her into surgery saying 'we don't know if she'll wake up... we don't know if she'll ever walk again...' All these things could have driven Willow over the edge. She was a loose canon. We saw how hostile (and threatening) she was when Giles confronted her... without actually threatening or hinting at threatening her.

Willow could have gone off the edge at many points... she did that potentially world ending spell in season 4 over her boyfriend LEAVING TOWN. She did her level best against Glory, but she was no match for Glory. She WAS the only person who by her direct power was able to significantly weaken Glory by the spell to suck Tara's power back from Glory... so... she was very powerful, and upsetting her was not a good thing. I don't think it had to be 'dead lesbians' sweeps in order to have her go over the edge.

It was bad enough for them to choose to turn the primary lesbian character into a monster... then to kill the other main lesbian character... That was 2 for 2.

I don't actually have an issue with Willow's meltdown... because she's just one person and because her ability to meltdown under stress was established way before her being a lesbian was revealed. It feels more neutral. the one-two punch that was bad Willow AND dead Tara was too much.

I already made a post about this but the main reason why I don’t like her is because she slept in her dead friend’s dead MOM’S bed! Who does that?

At a certain point, a bed is a bed. Emotionally, I don't like the optics either, particularly since it really was the same room, but when Buffy was dead, Willow and Tara staying in the house makes sense and them sleeping in Joyce's room is the only option other than them sleeping in Buffy's room... both were dead. The optics of EITHER is uncomfortable. But life goes on. People die. Those left behind don't automatically magically have new spaces to move into. Widow and widowers bring their new partners into their homes and eventually their former marriage beds. (Lots of them do buy new beds and redecorate if they can afford it, but not everyone can) A bunch of college students don't have a lot of money to spare, particularly when they're taking over responsibility for raising a kid and managing a household.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I don't know that it was the intent. More that the blind spot about what it would mean was alive and well. the old ideas crowded out common sense. They saw killing Tara as a good move... because Joss told them so. There was so much about Willow by the time she was out playing with reality at the Bronze that the coven could have justified taking her into custody... or trying... and she could have lost her nut if a bunch of strange witches showed up 'threatening' her autonomy. Even having Buffy get shot as it happened would have been enough for someone as brittle as she was to go after Warren... particularly if Tara was injured and the doctors took her into surgery saying 'we don't know if she'll wake up... we don't know if she'll ever walk again...' All these things could have driven Willow over the edge. She was a loose canon. We saw how hostile (and threatening) she was when Giles confronted her... without actually threatening or hinting at threatening her.

Willow could have gone off the edge at many points... she did that potentially world ending spell in season 4 over her boyfriend LEAVING TOWN. She did her level best against Glory, but she was no match for Glory. She WAS the only person who by her direct power was able to significantly weaken Glory by the spell to suck Tara's power back from Glory... so... she was very powerful, and upsetting her was not a good thing. I don't think it had to be 'dead lesbians' sweeps in order to have her go over the edge.

It was bad enough for them to choose to turn the primary lesbian character into a monster... then to kill the other main lesbian character... That was 2 for 2.

I don't actually have an issue with Willow's meltdown... because she's just one person and because her ability to meltdown under stress was established way before her being a lesbian was revealed. It feels more neutral. the one-two punch that was bad Willow AND dead Tara was too much.

I often wonder if some of the darker magicks used stayed in her system. I mean, Giles kinda warns her about it (he probably should've fully explained!) in s2 and giving Angel his soul back about opening a door that cannot be closed.

So you've got that, plus Buffy's resurrection spell, and that's potentially lit a fire under the darkest parts of Willow, so when Tara died, it was enough to push her over the edge...she was as the title of the episode says: Seeing Red.

At a certain point, a bed is a bed. Emotionally, I don't like the optics either, particularly since it really was the same room, but when Buffy was dead, Willow and Tara staying in the house makes sense and them sleeping in Joyce's room is the only option other than them sleeping in Buffy's room... both were dead. The optics of EITHER is uncomfortable. But life goes on. People die. Those left behind don't automatically magically have new spaces to move into. Widow and widowers bring their new partners into their homes and eventually their former marriage beds. (Lots of them do buy new beds and redecorate if they can afford it, but not everyone can) A bunch of college students don't have a lot of money to spare, particularly when they're taking over responsibility for raising a kid and managing a household.

Agree. It's not like Tara and Willow gleefully took Joyce's room. Joyce was like a mother figure to Willow.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

@NotASlayer wrote:
Then you had magic, the metaphor for Tara and Willow's relationship, becoming a metaphor for something disgusting that no decent person would do, plus Andrew, closet gay and horrible human being.

You make important points. I think it's very telling that in season seven we also have two new recurring characters are

a) lesbian
b) probably a closeted gay

Both are portrayed negatively.

This makes me wonder if it was deliberately an effort to turn back the positive messages about LGBTQ characters that they had created in season 4 and 5.

These are two of the most reviled characters of the entire series. It's likely more people hate Andrew than hate Warren. They made these two horrid people. One is a total homosexual stereotype. The other is... sociopathic predator at worst, at best a nasty rich entitled girl.

'The gay fool': (this is what they created, NOT what I, a bisexual woman believe about gay men. not even remotely)
Andrew is namby pamby and ridiculous. 'gay' in a way few gay men actually are... he's someone who lives in a fantasy world and has been so bad at choosing bedfellows that he's already managed to kill his best friend (or lover, that's not clear) on the advice of a ghost.

'The lesbian bitch/predator': ( again - this is what they created, NOT what I, a bisexual woman believe about lesbian women. not even remotely)
Kennedy is just an awful human. She's a predator. She basically forces herself into Willow's life and forces herself into Willow's bed.
Outside of that 'relationship' Kennedy is a person mean enough that she contributes to a suicide. She insults Buffy AS SHE WALKS IN THE DOOR. She has NO prior experience of a woman whose home she's invading without invitation or even permission.

Please note: those two terms I apply to those characters are terms I FIND deeply OFFENSIVE. I also think those are terms that are easily seen by me and a lot of people who love Buffy AND the (previous) positive (or simply accepting) message for LGBTQ+ Buffy the series NORMALIZED us. That was what was so good about early Tara and Willow. They weren't 'token lesbians' they were full 3D women who loved each other and happened to be happily and comfortably lesbian.

So in summation of gay and lesbians:
by season 7....

• Willow has become a spoiled, self centered magic addict with no spine. even her 'recovery' is suspect and she's apparently afraid of her own shadow
• Tara is dead
• Kennedy is a nasty piece of work who preys on widows just months out of their loss.
• Andrew is an idiotic and weak person who murders someone he cares about on the orders of an apparent 'ghost' of someone who treated him horribly while alive. Who does this?

Is it any wonder that LGBTQ (and many non LGBTQ) fans find the direction the series took in the last couple of years was not just BAD but in many ways felt like a big punch in the face. (that's the polite way of putting it)

It also made Buffy look bad for taking her comfort in Spike. She's broken and can't talk to friends. She is feeling utterly alone. Yet she soldiers on while she probably would like to curl into a ball.

• She doesn't drink or turn to drugs.
• She doesn't abandon her sister.
• She doesn't abandon her 'calling' (unpaid, unthanked child guardian of the planet {slave?})
• She doesn't kill herself (though she definitely is suicidal when Sweet comes to town.
• She doesn't just take to her bed in the depression she's clearly feeling.

she sleeps with one person. Someone who listens to her and actually saves her life when she does cross that line from suicidal ideation into suicidal action.
She gets a crap job to feed her sister and try to keep going. And she gets viciously portrayed by the writers as slutty and borderline irresponsible.

I know lots of Bangels don't like the Spuffy interaction. There's lots not to like about what was showed on screen, but really, not a lot about the fact of her being with Spike that was worthy of the kind of nastiness that she gets. But... Honestly, i think a lot of it is portrayed to make her look bad. And how it ended is a big smack in the face to let her know just how stupid she was. Guess she should have started drinking or put a gun to her head. This ugly sexing Buffy was a writing decision. And it was an awful one. Many people after major loss have slept with someone for a bit of comfort. If the person cares about you, it may be one of the LEAST dangerous 'release valves' on can choose.

And as for endings... Buffy could have broken up with him in such a way as to make it clear to Spike that his behaviour was unacceptable and clearly showed why his soullessness was a deal breaker, feelings or not (which is what seeing red did - it drove him to go for his soul out of horror)

For example -- if it had been shown as proven that he was selling Sovulte eggs to try to make money for her and for Dawn... Buffy would have definitely rejected that and him and basically lit into him for putting the world at risk to save her and Dawn being unacceptable and only the kind of judgment a demon would make. She could even have demanded he leave town. But no, she ends up looking weak and pathetic... and sex bad.

She is not weak, but she sure was portrayed that way.

So the message (once again) is sex for Buffy is bad as if she's supposed to be some kind of perpetual virgin/icon of purity. But no sex for Buffy. (She sleeps with Angel, he becomes a monster). Then after every horrible happens to her... she's not allowed a moment of comfort.

The way it is shot is often degrading. It did not have to be. What happens in fact... she gets the release of sex and she gets someone she actually talks to... Instead, she sleeps with Spike and she's supposed to feel ashamed. Why? She's a grown woman. She's had the most awful time. Is it the wisest or happiest choice? No. In a real life, could it last, probably not. But... it's simply NOT the worst thing she could do as a way of seeking comfort in her darkest days:

• Dig out of her grave=permanent PTSD for just about anyone.
• Pulled out of the peace of heaven - probably MORE traumatic than digging out of your grave.
• Forcing herself to kill herself in order to save the world. She may have been tired and overwhelmed when she climbed that tower, but I don't think she wanted to die. That has to be seriously traumatic.
• Woke up Broke
• Grieving mom
• Abandoned by her watcher
• unable to talk to friends who think she should be grateful for the VIOLATION of bringing her back
• living in the chaos of a world with a grieving sister AND an out of control 'friend' who is not really a caregiver...
• Oh and yeah, cheated on and put at risk by Riley the vampire snack who could have been turned and killed all her friends.

So... Sex Bad, Gay people iffy?

A world of please no!