would the show have been different if xander didn't lie?

[Mohammad Khawar]

I was just wondering, in season 2, do u think Buffy would have done something different if xander had told her the truth about willow performing the spell to restore Angel's soul?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I don't think Xander's lie really made all that difference. If anything, Buffy taking out that minion vamp faster is what would've changed the show. Angelus would never have got to Acathla then Willow could've restored Angel's soul.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Well when the topic is finally revisited in Selfless, it is basically glossed over immediately. Despite how important it seemed at the time, I think it impacted pretty much nothing in the grand scheme.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I don't think it really would have made a big difference. Maybe Buffy would have tried harder to stall Angelus, but other than that, I think it all would have played out the same way.

 

[flow]

When I first saw this scene I was mad at Xander for lying to Buffy.

When I saw this scene a second time, I was wondering, how things would have developed differently, if Xander had passed on Willows message correctly. Which was basically "I am restoring his soul, don`t kill him !"

Xander knows that Buffy has not been capable of killing Angel before. She had the opportunity but she gave him a pass because of her love for the former ensouled version of him.

This time the whole world is at risk.

Xander also knows that Willow has failed before in doing the spell that restores Angels soul.

Xander saw it very clearly. If he tells Buffy that Willow would have another go on the spell, then Buffy would not have fought Angel to the death. She would have tried to stall him in order to give Willow more time. And that might have killed her. It was a very close fight after all.

So, I actually believe, Xander was acting wisely and bravely. And he never got credits for it. Poor guy.

flow

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I think Buffy may have changed her strategy, she may have worked harder to distract Angelus from piercing Acathala to begin with. Maybe it would have changed nothing, maybe it wouldn't, we will never know.

But still it is THE WORST. This is the thing that bothers me the most about the show and how it is never resolved and there are never consequences to this action. Buffy should have had full knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes to restore Angel's soul. She should have been fully informed to dictate her strategy in the fight. She didn't and that is not ok. This is the biggest betrayal of any Scooby and it is for entirely selfish reasons. Xander decides on his own that regardless of restoration or not, Angel needs to die. He makes this decision on his own by withholding this information from Buffy.

The fact that this is brought up again in Selfless just proves the point, that this was not a minor betrayal. The writers recognize that this was a big deal and it still remains unresolved very purposefully.

 

[smgismyqueenjpg]

I kinda wish he got killed off.

 

[Mohammad Khawar]

When I first saw this scene I was mad at Xander for lying to Buffy.

When I saw this scene a second time, I was wondering, how things would have developed differently, if Xander had passed on Willows message correctly. Which was basically "I am restoring his soul, don`t kill him !"

Xander knows that Buffy has not been capable of killing Angel before. She had the opportunity but she gave him a pass because of her love for the former ensouled version of him.

This time the whole world is at risk.

Xander also knows that Willow has failed before in doing the spell that restores Angels soul.

Xander saw it very clearly. If he tells Buffy that Willow would have another go on the spell, then Buffy would not have fought Angel to the death. She would have tried to stall him in order to give Willow more time. And that might have killed her. It was a very close fight after all.

So, I actually believe, Xander was acting wisely and bravely. And he never got credits for it. Poor guy.

flow

thats an interesting point.. But i think xander's hate towards angel caused him to say that.. Not the concern that willow may fail
 

I kinda wish he got killed off.

Yea hated him from season 1-3.. Also in some other seasons but yea... I get where you're coming from

 

[Bop]

Even if Xander hadn't lied, and Angel had been saved, it probably wouldn't have changed the show that much. It's just that Buffy's mini depression arc would have been cut out but other than that the show probably would have gone on as normal.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Even if Xander hadn't lied, and Angel had been saved, it probably wouldn't have changed the show that much. It's just that Buffy's mini depression arc would have been cut out but other than that the show probably would have gone on as normal.

I don't know, i agree that it would not have changed the show story arc but I do think it would have changed the Bangel Season 3 relationship. So much of Buffy's distance seems to be related to the guilt of sending him to hell for hundreds of years. I wonder if she would have fought harder to resestablish their relationship earlier on if he was just back right off the bat without going to hell. But then again we may have never had Scott Hope, and we can't have that! Scuffy! 😉

 

[thrasherpix]

If Angel got through it without going to some hell dimension then he'd need to go away for awhile. Angelus did truly horrible things, and while that is not Angel's fault, it would be the height of selfishness for him and Buffy to expect others to just say, "Welcome back." They, especially Giles, needed time to calm down. Xander was obviously upset over what was done to Willow as well, not just seeing Angelus threaten Willow--which would remind Xander of how Angel WITH a soul did something real similar to him in School Hard, btw--but how badly injured Willow was. Not even he could laugh when Buffy tried to make a joke.

Really, had Angel got through it and stayed, I wouldn't have blamed Giles for say decapitating Angel even as Angel begged his forgiveness...not to say Angel deserved it, but sometimes you just have to give people some space. How much more you like one character over another doesn't change that.

And god knows how Joyce would've been immediately after. I thought she did surprisingly well when she finally realized Angel was back in season 3, and Buffy invited him in (letting Joyce know that once again Buffy had lied to her, or at best had shut her out, keeping dangerous secrets).

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The difference would be Buffy would have been killed using delaying tactics and then Acathla would have sucked the world into hell. Angelus was every bit her equal as a swordsman wand was winning when the spell took effect.

 

[Icarium]

If only Angel had pulled out the sword before Buffy had a chance to stall... oh wait. Total moot point, especially considering Angel returned three freaking episodes later but people are whining about "the Lie" to this very day.

Also, I bet all of you would rather maximize the very slim chance of saving your own ass (and the entire world to boot) rather than trying to increase the even smaller chance of saving some serial killer whom you never liked even when he was "cured". But when a character in the show does the logical thing instead of relying on the plot armor he isn't supposed to know about fans are up in arms.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Also, I bet all of you would rather maximize the very slim chance of saving your own ass (and the entire world to boot) rather than trying to increase the even smaller chance of saving some serial killer whom you never liked even when he was "cured". But when a character in the show does the logical thing instead of relying on the plot armor he isn't supposed to know about fans are up in arms.

I trust Buffy would have done the right thing regardless. The point is, she is going into battle to save the world. She should have all of the information at her disposal so she can make the appropriate tactical decisions. She didn't, Xander took that away from her. And its a big deal that the person that Buffy should be able to rely on and trust the most was not truthful to her at that time.

Incidentally, saving Angel is not just a selfish act. Angel is a powerful asset for the side of good. Having him fighting for Buffy's side, is not entirely selfish. Aside from Buffy at this point, he is the only supernatural being fighting against the bad guys. That's why the Powers sent him to Buffy to begin with.

 

[Icarium]

I trust Buffy would have done the right thing regardless.

Easy to say when it's all fiction and no one is in any actual danger from vampires or demons. As a viewer I find it refreshing when the characters do not always make the riskiest decisions because they always want to save everyone whatever the odds.

The point is, she is going into battle to save the world. She should have all of the information at her disposal so she can make the appropriate tactical decisions. She didn't, Xander took that away from her.

What tactical decisions hinged on Buffy knowing Willow would attempt to cast the spell? Either Willow would have failed, in which case it would be a moot point, or it would work too early or too late to make any difference or as it happened Buffy would realize what had unfolded in which case it once again it made no difference whatsoever. Sure, you can come up with an extremely unlikely scenario where the spell kicks in mid-battle and Buffy stakes Angel before realising what had happened but the fate of the world was hanging in the balance and the last time Buffy's tactics hinged on stalling for time Kendra was killed, Willow was sent to the hospital and Giles was kidnapped, so it's hardly surprising Xander didn't think this tactic was such a great idea.

Incidentally, saving Angel is not just a selfish act. Angel is a powerful asset for the side of good.

Not when the loophole in his curse was known. Xander wasn't to know that Angel was going to have a spin-off so that curse would prove surprisingly ineffective later on. 😉 Kidding aside, I don't think Xander was thinking long-term at this juncture, he was thinking that the odds were stacked against Buffy (bear in mind he didn't know that Spike had switched sides) so she shouldn't have any distractions (most likely) false hopes, etc. But judging by the reactions of many shippers... I mean fans, one would think this must be the worst betrayal in history.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

But judging by the reactions of many shippers... I mean fans, one would think this must be the worst betrayal in history.

Believe me when I tell you that my shipper-y-ness has little to do with how much this lie bothers me. It may be difficult for you to believe and that is fine. But the lie bothers me because of the relationship between Xander and Buffy, the relationship that I think should be based on honesty and trust. So it really isn't about me wanting a Bangel happily every after (that was not going to happen anyway). To me its all about Xander and how he acted.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

But the lie bothers me because of the relationship between Xander and Buffy, the relationship that I think should be based on honesty and trust.

I think Xander's attitude to Buffy can be very hot and cold. One minute he's worshipping the ground she walks on, the next he's having a right go at her. He's not as close to Buffy as he is to Willow and in some ways I think it is Willow that ties the three together. Xander would probably consider Buffy one of his best friends, however, if he had to choose between her and Willow, he would choose Willow hands down.