Question Would Buffy have had an affair with Spike if she hadn't died, not been through resurrection & depression/trauma?

Thanks for the examples. Upon review, I can see what you mean about the "Blood Ties" scene, though I tend to think the bigger indicator, if any, was the foreshadowing refrain of "He is not my boyfriend!" that Buffy says to Glory.

The "Checkpoint" one is one of those where I think Buffy just wants his help, and Spike reads something into it. But I agree that for someone she professes to hate, she constantly finds reasons to request his help.

They are building up a level of trust, no doubt, I just don't see any attraction on Buffy's side. But I know people read the scenes differently, so I'm just agreeing to disagree!
 
As much as I love Spuffy, I'm going to make to admit no. Buffy's depression made her act out of character, and if she hadn't been depressed, I don't think she would have gotten involved physically with Spike. Using anyone for sex was way out of character for Buffy.

But. Yes, I do believe they would have gotten involved, but not until he got his soul back. They always had chemistry, and I think a big part of her was curious what it would be like to be with Spike.

Of course my opinion is way bias because I am a hardcore Spuffy shipper and believe them to be soulmates.
 
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No, Buffy and spike never should have even been in a relationship. After Riley, the writers probably needed someone more interesting and Spike had a lot of popularity. Before the Spuffy fans attack me tho, just want it to be clear that even Buffy didn’t like Spike for the majority of the series. I mean she had use for him, that’s why the scoobies didn’t kill him during the multiple times they could have in season 4 or 5. But there really wasn’t any love until it was forced on the audience by mid season 5

Masters / Spike was very popular not only with spuffy fans but also with JW and MN , if you do not put him with Buffy what do you do with the character you can only have him stalk Buffy for so long before he had to be staked , so make Buffy mentally ill , lonely and then have Spike take advantage , shag her , then try to rape her ,
I do not know of another film / tv show where the main character is degraded to such a extent just to bring on the story line of another character its like they no longer cared about or what happened to Buffy just used to push Spikes Story
 
I don't think so. If she hadn't died and been brought back in the manner that was shown then it would've never happened. Buffy would've had too strong a moral core to use a mass murderer to make herself feel...anything that she was lacking. She wouldn't have hated herself that much.

Sure, she might've been lonely but that's about it, and she would've felt able to date again when she wished. Maybe another college guy, or a man-witch from or a night shift cop from the Sunnydale PD. Many possibilities before 'chipped vampire who is obsessed with me'.

Also without her resurrection Spike could not have attacked her in the manner that he did, so no flop-house screw, no 50 shades of consent issues, no semi-public sex and no violent sexual assault. He would still remain relatively harmless to her.
 
Masters / Spike was very popular not only with spuffy fans but also with JW and MN , if you do not put him with Buffy what do you do with the character you can only have him stalk Buffy for so long before he had to be staked , so make Buffy mentally ill , lonely and then have Spike take advantage , shag her , then try to rape her ,
I do not know of another film / tv show where the main character is degraded to such a extent just to bring on the story line of another character its like they no longer cared about or what happened to Buffy just used to push Spikes Story

Literally. It still makes me sick that Spuffy is even a thing. It makes the show look like some distasteful cheap teen soap opera.
 
Literally. It still makes me sick that Spuffy is even a thing. It makes the show look like some distasteful cheap teen soap opera.
I can see Buffy and Angel being compared to a distasteful teen soap opera, not so much Buffy and Spike; they seem to be more of a distasteful young adultish soap opera.
 
Buffy’s mental state was obviously a major reason to them crossing that boundary. However, at the end of s5 we have the ”you treat me like a man” moment that shows Buffy is starting to shift in her position on Spike, even comparing to just a couple of episodes earlier.

I think the depression was necessary for it to happen in season 6, but I do think they could’ve gotten them together eventually even without it. And it may have been more interesting than compromising Buffy’s mental well being. She has genuine disgust in Crush, but that was shifting as mentioned. Clever writing could’ve made it happen regardless of Buffy being depressed.

As a Bangel fan I think that the soul is a bit of a smoke screen sometimes. It is important of course that Angel is good, but the soul is not an absolute for moral goodness, meaning that it is a good way to rationalize being in a relationship with a vampire (as opposed to a human), but at the end of the day Buffy telling herself that Angel is completely separate from Angelus is something not even Angel would agree to on his own show.
It is an excuse that makes it ok. Bottom line she has already dated a vampire with vampire history (murder and mayhem), crossing the line to being with Spike is thinner than it may appear.
 
I do think they could’ve gotten them together eventually even without it. And it may have been more interesting than compromising Buffy’s mental well being.
I think by the time the Gift rolled around Buffy truly loved Spike. I agree it would have been a much better story had she realized she was in love with him (without a soul), and without suffering from depression to do so. That's why the Gift and S5 in general was such a great way to end the show.
 
N
NoShip
I am really missing something here. How does Buffy indicate that she is in love with Spike in s5?
I think the depression was necessary for it to happen in season 6, but I do think they could’ve gotten them together eventually even without it. And it may have been more interesting than compromising Buffy’s mental well being.

I don't think they compromised it in S6...and I think it's more complicated than getting her with Spike. I think she's been depressed for a long time.

In the absence of any medical evidence, I don't think Buffy's "depression" is general depression but melancholia. Melancholia is a failure in the grieving process. In normal mourning the loss is externalised and the world seems less. In melancholia, it's internalised and the self is less. It's an old term but recently, it's been taken up by French Feminists. Here's a synopsis of Julia Kristeva's Black Sun: Depression and Melancholy (1989). @Taake - I've actually read and scribbled in this one! Several times.😏 ) "Kristeva's primary analysis proposes a loss theory of melancholia in the tradition of Freud's “Mourning and Melancholia.” Like Freud and Klein before her, she asserts that early development results in a separation of the infant-mother dyad, and she identifies the sadness of depression with a mourning for the lost other (mother, breast) relinquished at weaning. In addition to such “objectal” depression, Kristeva adapts Freud's theory of the death wish to introduce the notion of a kind of depression that is “narcissistic.” Thus, as well as a form of mourning for the lost mother, melancholia is a mourning for the lost self.

The loss described here is imaginary but has a real impact. It's to do with separation. Think of the number of times Buffy's separated from Joyce or something/someone intervenes between her and Joyce often with traumatic outcomes. Ted? Her first death? Becoming? Giles? Faith? Dawn? She's "lost" her mother over and over...until she loses her in the real in The Body. She loses her again in Normal. Buffy's not depressed because she died (look at the reference to "death wish") I think it was a relief. Resurrection tore her away from a state that's easily aligned with the imaginary state described above.

"I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven. And now I'm not. (almost tearful) I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost..."

Personally, I'm not sure she was in an actual heaven. This could be a state of nothingness retroactively reconstructed.

The saddest thing is...and this is why I think this is a feminist text...I don't think she ever recovers from it. She just has periods of remission. In S7 she's evicted from her mother's house (Revello means "torn out, plucked out") or arranges her own eviction (a death wish of sorts). In S8 she comments on missing her mum...In S10 she says Joyce's death was much worse than the AR. It's sad because (for various reasons) it's the price she pays for being a slayer...and a woman. As it stands, the psycho-social makes it almost impossible for a woman to recover the mother.

I agree with @Spanky about her being in love with Spike in S5 but I think her feelings for him are bound up with her feelings for Joyce (it might be because he offers her unconditional love...traditionally a mother's love) ...after this...well...it's complicated. But yeah...I think it would have happened. For me, it would have been a lesser text if it hadn't. @Priceless - I'm burning my copy of S12. 😡

That's it...BtVS is more intelligent than me. I'm going back to Lucifer.
 
Priceless
Priceless
Best thing for S12 😄
You mean a mass murderer without a soul? Because she sorta already used a mass murderer to make herself feel better.

I disagree. A valid way to view Angel is that Angel and Angelus are separate and distinct identities rather as some sort of continuation of the same character. The demon who moves in could be viewed as its own person, shaped by host memories. Angel might refer to what 'he' did but Angelus does not. Angel is not him.

Also 'make herself feel better' is not why she slept with Angel and neither did she didn't 'used' him. So I don't see what she did with Spike in any way analogous with what she had done previously.
 
Masters / Spike was very popular not only with spuffy fans but also with JW and MN , if you do not put him with Buffy what do you do with the character you can only have him stalk Buffy for so long before he had to be staked , so make Buffy mentally ill , lonely and then have Spike take advantage , shag her , then try to rape her ,
I do not know of another film / tv show where the main character is degraded to such a extent just to bring on the story line of another character its like they no longer cared about or what happened to Buffy just used to push Spikes Story
I always saw Noxon as far more of a Riley Stan so quotes please to back that up, also Joss I think more accepted the dramatic potential and came to like the ship for what he could do with it rather than being on board. He falls into the trap of thinking happy people have no stories not realising that actually drama doesn't have to come from shitty relationships. He also thinks he has to throw bones to both Bangels and Spuffys - I wish like Cristos Gage in the comics he'd explore tensions within a ship but keep the couple together.
 
I don't think they compromised it in S6...and I think it's more complicated than getting her with Spike. I think she's been depressed for a long time.

In the absence of any medical evidence, I don't think Buffy's "depression" is general depression but melancholia. Melancholia is a failure in the grieving process. In normal mourning the loss is externalised and the world seems less. In melancholia, it's internalised and the self is less. It's an old term but recently, it's been taken up by French Feminists. Here's a synopsis of Julia Kristeva's Black Sun: Depression and Melancholy (1989). @Taake - I've actually read and scribbled in this one! Several times.😏 ) "Kristeva's primary analysis proposes a loss theory of melancholia in the tradition of Freud's “Mourning and Melancholia.” Like Freud and Klein before her, she asserts that early development results in a separation of the infant-mother dyad, and she identifies the sadness of depression with a mourning for the lost other (mother, breast) relinquished at weaning. In addition to such “objectal” depression, Kristeva adapts Freud's theory of the death wish to introduce the notion of a kind of depression that is “narcissistic.” Thus, as well as a form of mourning for the lost mother, melancholia is a mourning for the lost self.

The loss described here is imaginary but has a real impact. It's to do with separation. Think of the number of times Buffy's separated from Joyce or something/someone intervenes between her and Joyce often with traumatic outcomes. Ted? Her first death? Becoming? Giles? Faith? Dawn? She's "lost" her mother over and over...until she loses her in the real in The Body. She loses her again in Normal. Buffy's not depressed because she died (look at the reference to "death wish") I think it was a relief. Resurrection tore her away from a state that's easily aligned with the imaginary state described above.

"I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven. And now I'm not. (almost tearful) I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost..."

Personally, I'm not sure she was in an actual heaven. This could be a state of nothingness retroactively reconstructed.

The saddest thing is...and this is why I think this is a feminist text...I don't think she ever recovers from it. She just has periods of remission. In S7 she's evicted from her mother's house (Revello means "torn out, plucked out") or arranges her own eviction (a death wish of sorts). In S8 she comments on missing her mum...In S10 she says Joyce's death was much worse than the AR. It's sad because (for various reasons) it's the price she pays for being a slayer...and a woman. As it stands, the psycho-social makes it almost impossible for a woman to recover the mother.

I agree with @Spanky about her being in love with Spike in S5 but I think her feelings for him are bound up with her feelings for Joyce (it might be because he offers her unconditional love...traditionally a mother's love) ...after this...well...it's complicated. But yeah...I think it would have happened. For me, it would have been a lesser text if it hadn't. @Priceless - I'm burning my copy of S12. 😡

That's it...BtVS is more intelligent than me. I'm going back to Lucifer.

While interesting and fun to read, the mother-focus is a bit much for me and it kind of troubles me that feminist writings seem prone to take a very bleak view of womanhood and self.

I will however buy that she may have suffered melancholy and not just in season 6, but consistently if less clearly. I do think however that the writers wished to 'heighten' the expression of it in season 6 and make it seems like there has been a considerable change to Buffy's general state of being, which enables Spuffy to happen with some convenience on their part (probably knowing there would be as many "nays" as "yays" to the event).

As mentioned, I don't think they needed to go that route really, I think Spuffy could've happened without an increase to Buffy's melancholic state, and I think it would've served well to spark some discussions on what does the soul means in the show. What are demons really (vampires are soulless but Anya does not seem to be, yet she wrecked havoc for centuries too, what about Clem, he seems decent enough) and how can we understand what being good is. Is it part of an essence of being - a soul - or is it Aristotelian habitus suggesting that even a soulless being might be able to acquire genuine goodness through mimesis?
But that's slightly off topic, my point is more, I think they felt like they needed to make Buffy somehwat different to explain why Spuffy happened, though I'm not sure it was truly necessary.

However, that is coming 20 years later and after watching shows like Vampire Diaries etc also explore vampire-human relationships too and probably pushing the audiences and studios tolerances past what they were 20+ years ago.



That's it...BtVS is more intelligent than me. I'm going back to Lucifer.

Meanwhile in hell...
raw

"It's all coming together, mwahahaha" - Satan
 
that feminist writings seem prone to take a very bleak view of womanhood and self.
I don't think they're all as bleak as Kristeva...Irigaray is more positive.
As mentioned, I don't think they needed to go that route really, I think Spuffy could've happened without an increase to Buffy's melancholic state, and I think it would've served well to spark some discussions on what does the soul means in the show.
I don't know...and that's not passive-aggressive questioning of you - it's more to do with my own lack of imagination. I'm garbage at alternatives and tend to go along with what's written even if I don't like what's written (I hate SR and wish it was different but can't re-imagine it). I'm the least creative creative person I know.
What are demons really (vampires are soulless but Anya does not seem to be, yet she wrecked havoc for centuries too, what about Clem, he seems decent enough) and how can we understand what being good is. Is it part of an essence of being - a soul - or is it Aristotelian habitus suggesting that even a soulless being might be able to acquire genuine goodness through mimesis?
Agree (though I wouldn't go back to Aristotle because that might involve me reading hard stuff). My own thinking tends towards the latter. The problem I have is - until Spike - we only have Angel as an example. If you only ever see a black swan how do you know white swans exist? I can't see Whedon (et.al) as an essentialist...they don't take an essentialist approach to language - which would be my starting point. I can see Angel as an essentialist though.

Giles' notion of the self is the one that interests me and might be pivotal (not least because much of what we know is mediated through him): "In the end, we all are who we are, no matter how much we may appear to have changed". I can't get my head around that. Where's the starting point? This from a season that appears to reference Eliot's "In my end is my beginning" IIRC, Giles talks about the ouroboros in S10...which is also about string theory (I understand quantum mechanics less than I understand The Greeks). In Chosen we get this: "I used to be a highly respected watcher, and now I'm a wounded dwarf with the mystical strength of a doily". I don't think there's one self...I think there are multiple selves all occupying the same place at the same time (see what I did there?). On that basis (and bringing it back on topic...I think)
my point is more, I think they felt like they needed to make Buffy somehwat different to explain why Spuffy happened
I'm not sure she's different...I think she's been there all along.
Meanwhile in hell...
Keep up. 😏 He hasn't been in Hell since the beginning of S5...he's been in Heaven and LA (which might amount to the same thing). Demons there can grow a soul...God said so so it must be true. 😄
 
I believe Buffy and Spike would have gotten together without the death and resurrection.

Buffy's friends are still as judgemental as they were in Dead Man's Party because no one called them out on it and personalities follow Newton's laws of motion - an object does not change velocity and direction unless acted on by a force that changes the momentum. Nowhere do we see Willow or Xander decide they had been unreasonable to Buffy and change their ways nor does any external force move them in a different direction. Buffy never tells them how unreasonable they were. She needed someone different to confide in.

Spike is the person who accepted torture rather than give up Dawn as the Key. I doubt any of her other friends would do that. She kissed Spike on the lips as a reward. Some people have said that this was beyond what was called for and I agree - it shows more than appreciation for a favour. Spike is also the one who is perspicacious about other people. When Oz left, her friends said Willow was coping but Spike said she was hanging on by her fingernails. In Pangs, he had the sense to realize that there was no hope of appeasing the native spirits. He was able to set the scoobies against each other in The Yoko Factor. By contrast, her friends were likely to choose an explanation of events and personalities that required the least effort on their part. Buffy needed better friends and Spike was more emotionally in tune with her and anything he had to say was always interesting.

Buffy didn't have any qualms about dating a vampire - she had done it before and yes, there were consequences but she figured she could handle them this time because Spike was the one pursuing her, putting her in control of the situation.

One other example Buffy has seen is his treatment of Drusilla. When Buffy had to fight Angelus to destroy Acathla, Spike had given her the information she needed in exchange for the right to take Drusilla away with him. His love for Drusilla (and later Harmony) was never ideal but it did showcase his patience and he and Drusilla had been a couple for over a century. He did show some ability to love that should not have been there by the standard definition of a vampire. He liked the same house-wrecking sex as Buffy and although she tried to convince herself that this wasn't right, she failed - it was exactly what she wanted and needed and a total contrast to the lazy sex in "Where the Wild Things Are".

And let's not forget that Spike was handsome and looked fit - for some women, that is enough in itself.
 
Literally. It still makes me sick that Spuffy is even a thing. It makes the show look like some distasteful cheap teen soap opera.

My view both S6 and S7 turn into a soap opera admittedly Xander Character writing became more obnoxious as time went by but leaving Anya at the alter never , the bad boyfriend , drug abuse , all can be seen in any soap.
S7 where we saw Spikes Story yet not the consequences to Buffy and what she had been though , she just soak up more crap , real insult was when Buffy called Spike her champion he had physically and mentally abuse her ,tried to rape her , tried many times to murder her, and was a mass murderer , that champion should have gone to Xander by Buffy side always from day one, caring and fighting along side her despite just being normal but by that time in S7 it had become all about Spike .
My main cripes is without pressure from Spuffy and the horrid sex I think we possibly would have had more BTVS with SMG taking less airtime giving her more time for other work and people like Faith , willow and some potentials ( finding ones who could act ) having more input into each episode
 
I might buy it if it were an AU, perhaps something like Dawn dying at the end of Season 5 instead of Buffy and having the attempt to bring her back fail. Buffy would still be depressed, but not as disoriented as she was after her resurrection in the series continuity. It might be Spuffy on a more equal footing, given Spike was Buffy's addiction for most of Season 6 as it stands. It could end up more healthily. But death or no death, would Spuffy last as a relationship? He clearly loves her. but she wants Angel.
 
My view both S6 and S7 turn into a soap opera admittedly Xander Character writing became more obnoxious as time went by but leaving Anya at the alter never , the bad boyfriend , drug abuse , all can be seen in any soap.
S7 where we saw Spikes Story yet not the consequences to Buffy and what she had been though , she just soak up more crap , real insult was when Buffy called Spike her champion he had physically and mentally abuse her ,tried to rape her , tried many times to murder her, and was a mass murderer , that champion should have gone to Xander by Buffy side always from day one, caring and fighting along side her despite just being normal but by that time in S7 it had become all about Spike .
My main cripes is without pressure from Spuffy and the horrid sex I think we possibly would have had more BTVS with SMG taking less airtime giving her more time for other work and people like Faith , willow and some potentials ( finding ones who could act ) having more input into each episode
I’m more upset they brought the champion schtick over to BTVS and didn’t make fun of it. Perfect opportunity 😂

Spike - champion? That sounds kind of pretentious
Buffy (shrugs) - well it is Angel
 
They had chemistry from the first episode and they even lampshaded it with Dru telling Spike he was covered in her.

I think that the resurrection was a definite catalyst but that they might have ended up together eventually. As others said, the growing trust she had in him showed in a variety of ways - not just because of his raw strength. And they could talk. This matters. It was a good sign for future closeness.
 
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