Willow and... Faith?!

[burrunjor]

LGBT viewers latched onto Buffy the Vampire Slayer due to the pairing of Willow and Tara and the other gay characters like Larry Blaisdell and Andrew and made a game of permutations and combinations by putting various same-sex people into fanfic relationships. Some are hinted at like Angel and Spike ("except for that one time") and others may be imagined like Giles and Ethan. A lot of people put Spike and Xander together just because they shared the same basement.

Willow and Faith is just another combination in a long list.

Let's see, who haven't I seen paired yet, how about Gunn and Lorne? Yeah, somebody should write that one since Lorne is played as gay.

Also J August Richards is gay too. To be honest I actually don't mind Gunn and Lorne LOL. Two great characters who don't have much meaningful interaction, apart from the negative in s3. Wouldn't be that bad character development to have him fall for a demon after his prejudice. I'm not saying I would want it to happen in the show or anything, but as a fan pairing it's better than some of the others.

J is an awesome guy in real life too. Always been so cool and funny on instagram with his fans.

 

[twoslayers]

Faith with a woman, absolutely. But not Willow, they are radically not each other's type and barring one episode on Angel where they worked together okay Willow hates Faith. Buffy is the woman for Faith. I could maybe see her with Cordelia. Perhaps at a stretch Anya, Faith might appreciate her forthrightness. But Willow would not be a good match for Faith at all.

Kennedy and Willow never really made sense to me. I guess it makes sense that Willow would take what happiness she can get if the world might be about to end, but more than that? Honestly, I'd probably have made Willow bi and have Oz return. Would have made sense and been great nostalgia. If the politics of that offends anyone, they can go back and watch Season 4 and see it makes sense.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Faith with a woman, absolutely. But not Willow, they are radically not each other's type and barring one episode on Angel where they worked together okay Willow hates Faith. Buffy is the woman for Faith. I could maybe see her with Cordelia. Perhaps at a stretch Anya, Faith might appreciate her forthrightness. But Willow would not be a good match for Faith at all.

Two formerly evil people now making things right - perhaps no blossoming relationship, but I think there could've been a budding friendship between the two. They're a bit older, been through things, so they could probably understand one another better.

Kennedy and Willow never really made sense to me. I guess it makes sense that Willow would take what happiness she can get if the world might be about to end, but more than that? Honestly, I'd probably have made Willow bi and have Oz return. Would have made sense and been great nostalgia. If the politics of that offends anyone, they can go back and watch Season 4 and see it makes sense.

Not the only forced relationship of the season. They also had zero chemistry.

 

[NotASlayer]

Two formerly evil people now making things right - perhaps no blossoming relationship, but I think there could've been a budding friendship between the two. They're a bit older, been through things, so they could probably understand one another better.

Interestingly, this is a basis for Willow/Anya pairings in S7.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Interestingly, this is a basis for Willow/Anya pairings in S7.

I could see them working too! I mean...it did get a little sexy...

 

[quillandfang]

The entitled side of the LGBT fandom however again, because they are part of a vulnerable minority who have been demonized as whole, people won't want to say that about them out of fear of looking like a homophobe and punching down in general which I get. Still by letting them run rampant, you're not treating them as equals, and worse the more you let these entitled asshats like the ones on X speak for the entire LGBT community as they claim, the more there is likely to be a backlash where everybody does get lumped in with them.

As someone who is both part of the LGBT community (no one come at me, please) and enjoys Buffy/Faith on the hypothetical fanon side of things, I don't think saying this is homophobic at all, and I actually do agree with you. Funny enough, one of the reasons why I started looking for older forums to engage in my fandoms is because on some social media you have to be so careful what you say about characters and shows or else people will dogpile you, especially when it comes to shipping and headcanons. Of course there are extreme fans of every variety, but I do feel that due to the historic demonization of LGBT people in fandoms, as well as current demonization by other fans, musicians/actors/creators are so scared to criticize genuinely toxic behavior. I have been in many TV fandoms with a loud minority that is exactly like what you are describing. Shipping is harmless, headcanons are harmless, and I do both frequently, but when people want their reading of a fictional work to be validated to the point that they're willing to harass the actors and producers over it, it isn't harmless anymore. Speculation and discussing hypothetical character readings is supposed to be for fun; it's not a competition! And you're correct about the backlash as well, I've already noticed people generalizing all "fangirls" or all LGBT people in many social media circles because no one will call out the toxicity. It's very disappointing how sometimes a few bad eggs can ruin the perception of everyone in a group.

Hilariously a lot of these outlets will praise guys with GENUINELY shitty histories with LGBT people. Arnold Schwarzanegger banned gay marriage TWICE, yet The Mary Sue, Rachel Leishman in particular who spent 5 years attacking Gina, praise him and call him a hero. Similarly Pink News as we've been over treat Gina on the level of a child abuser, yet they praise Brad Pitt a man accused of beating his bisexual wife LMAO. However again they don't care about these guys because A/ they are straight white men, so who cares, they don't have that possessive love for them and B/ They are too powerful and it might not be convenient to take them down either

Yes! It's such a double standard! I feel like as a society we could make more change if we focused on criticizing celebrities who are actually bigoted and even abusive in some cases instead of coming after people, especially women, on the basis of the way a social media post was worded or something equally inconsequential. And that's not to say there's nothing to be criticized about insensitive language (speaking generally, I am unfamiliar with this specific situation), but intentions are what matter most. Anyway, to bring this back to Buffy: "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's depressing." But replace "spelling" with "sense of nuance and human decency." Sorry for being controversial, I just read your messages and figured there's probably not anywhere else I can say this stuff since most people seem to have extreme opinions on this topic one way or the other.

Kennedy and Willow never really made sense to me. I guess it makes sense that Willow would take what happiness she can get if the world might be about to end, but more than that? Honestly, I'd probably have made Willow bi and have Oz return. Would have made sense and been great nostalgia. If the politics of that offends anyone, they can go back and watch Season 4 and see it makes sense.

They had no chemistry! I wouldn't mind Oz coming back, but I honestly think Willow should've been alone in season 7. I think it could have been interesting to see her reflect on the previous season and have her arc be about getting past that, then have her be with Oz or a new female character more her type in the comics.

 

[quillandfang]

@garfan They didn't want any chance of Tara being seen as just a phase. The comics were YEARS later and never a guarantee to exist. Maybe if there was a season 8 they would have held off. But that was the onky way

I 100% get that! I guess I was just looking at it from the perspective of that both of her past relationships ended poorly (for different reasons, of course). So maybe it would be beneficial for her to reflect on who she is with and without magic, who she is individually, etc. However, I see what you're saying from a logistical standpoint. She and Tara were groundbreaking representation, and after they made the decision to kill off Tara they probably didn't want to cheapen the depth of their relationship by making it seem like experimentation. I do maintain what I said about Kennedy, though. If the writers wanted people to care about Willow's season 7 relationship, they should've 1. put her with a more likeable character and/or a previously existing character and 2. had them meet sooner; half a season isn't enough time to care about a relationship in a show's final season. I guess that relates to the topic of this thread; people disliked that relationship so much they started putting Willow with any other character they could haha. And I don't blame them!

 

[NotASlayer]

or a previously existing character

Faith, Buffy or Anya? (Skipping Dawn.)

 

[burrunjor]

As someone who is both part of the LGBT community (no one come at me, please) and enjoys Buffy/Faith on the hypothetical fanon side of things, I don't think saying this is homophobic at all, and I actually do agree with you. Funny enough, one of the reasons why I started looking for older forums to engage in my fandoms is because on some social media you have to be so careful what you say about characters and shows or else people will dogpile you, especially when it comes to shipping and headcanons. Of course there are extreme fans of every variety, but I do feel that due to the historic demonization of LGBT people in fandoms, as well as current demonization by other fans, musicians/actors/creators are so scared to criticize genuinely toxic behavior. I have been in many TV fandoms with a loud minority that is exactly like what you are describing. Shipping is harmless, headcanons are harmless, and I do both frequently, but when people want their reading of a fictional work to be validated to the point that they're willing to harass the actors and producers over it, it isn't harmless anymore. Speculation and discussing hypothetical character readings is supposed to be for fun; it's not a competition! And you're correct about the backlash as well, I've already noticed people generalizing all "fangirls" or all LGBT people in many social media circles because no one will call out the toxicity. It's very disappointing how sometimes a few bad eggs can ruin the perception of everyone in a group.


Yes! It's such a double standard! I feel like as a society we could make more change if we focused on criticizing celebrities who are actually bigoted and even abusive in some cases instead of coming after people, especially women, on the basis of the way a social media post was worded or something equally inconsequential. And that's not to say there's nothing to be criticized about insensitive language (speaking generally, I am unfamiliar with this specific situation), but intentions are what matter most. Anyway, to bring this back to Buffy: "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's depressing." But replace "spelling" with "sense of nuance and human decency." Sorry for being controversial, I just read your messages and figured there's probably not anywhere else I can say this stuff since most people seem to have extreme opinions on this topic one way or the other.


They had no chemistry! I wouldn't mind Oz coming back, but I honestly think Willow should've been alone in season 7. I think it could have been interesting to see her reflect on the previous season and have her arc be about getting past that, then have her be with Oz or a new female character more her type in the comics.

WOW amazing post. So glad to see someone else who gets it. Its just stupid tribalism on all counts, from the worst of the LGBT ones who go nuts if they think someone is devaluing their headcanon, to the others who claim this is what ALL LGBT people are like. People just can't have the nuanced and fair response of "there are people like this in ALL groups, but perhaps due to the vile persecution LGBT have experienced where even the slightest hint of a gay character in something was frowned on, people have become a bit oversensitive about this and won't call out LGBT people like that, which is worse in the long run as it leads to resentment and also doesn't treat LGBT with respect. It treats them with kid gloves."

It's really not that complex, but sadly people just can't get passed their own prejudices.

Sorry to derail it into this, but yeah as you can see it has become an issue with genre fandom in general.

 

[burrunjor]

I 100% get that! I guess I was just looking at it from the perspective of that both of her past relationships ended poorly (for different reasons, of course). So maybe it would be beneficial for her to reflect on who she is with and without magic, who she is individually, etc. However, I see what you're saying from a logistical standpoint. She and Tara were groundbreaking representation, and after they made the decision to kill off Tara they probably didn't want to cheapen the depth of their relationship by making it seem like experimentation. I do maintain what I said about Kennedy, though. If the writers wanted people to care about Willow's season 7 relationship, they should've 1. put her with a more likeable character and/or a previously existing character and 2. had them meet sooner; half a season isn't enough time to care about a relationship in a show's final season. I guess that relates to the topic of this thread; people disliked that relationship so much they started putting Willow with any other character they could haha. And I don't blame them!

Another thing to point out is that a lot of people seem less tolerant of bisexuals than you'd think. (Not saying you LOL, this is again a general rant.)

So what if Willow went out with a man after Tara? That would not mean it was a phase or that she didn't love Tara. It would mean she was bisexual, which would be a FAR better reading of her character by the way. How does she go from almost killing herself over a man cheating on her, being unable to physically keep her hands off Xander to the point where it ruins two relationships, be seduced regularly by male monsters like Thomas and Malcolm, all while never showing even the slightest bit of interest in any women, to now being unable to find a man attractive even when magic compels her LOL.

Latent bisexuality makes so much more sense. However people seem to think it just doesn't exist LOL, hence why if a woman is with dozens of men but then ends up with a woman again a lot of these lunatics go on about how she was comphet lesbian whatever that means, or if she was with a man, then a woman for years and years, and then ends up with a guy again that gets called a phase.

Of course this is not to say that you don't get lesbians in the closet and people dabbling. (I dabbled a tiny bit, though I'm definitely straight now.) Still in a lot of cases we have characters who have been involved in dozens of relationships with guys or women that were clearly at the time written to be genuine, not just repression or a phase etc.

Sadly so many bisexual people are often bullied into picking a side as it were.

Meanwhile as to why Kennedy bombed well I think it was a combo of reasons. As an idea for a character, she's not THAT bad. The actress is fine, she's gorgeous, she's a decent fighter who can actually hold her own with a Turok Han so she's not all talk and she is a nice contrast to Tara who as so soft. Also to be honest I have 0 problems with her when she calls out Buffy, which seems to be what most people hate her for.

She was right when Buffy was being a bitch about a girl who killed herself, and also I know this might cause a nuclear explosion, but I still have 0 issue with the potentials kicking Buffy out.

Thing is THEY DIDN'T. Buffy threw herself out. She said unless they followed her then she would leave. Her plan meanwhile was stupid. She wanted to drag a group of injured girls into a vineyard with Mcstabby the turbo charged woman hating serial killer, which had already got about 4 of them killed. The only reason her later plan worked was because she was on her own. Think she could have done that with 15 girls who couldn't defend themselves against Caleb? On top of that Buffy had also been violent to people who disagreed with her earlier, whilst Spike, her absolute simp was also violent to anyone who disagreed. Kennedy was right in that respect.

I also don't think it was because she simply replaced Tara as to why she was disliked. Tara replaced Oz who was beloved and Wesley replaced Doyle who was beloved and Spike replaced Cordelia on Angel who was the heart of the show and they all thrived.

I think it's more.

1/ As you say it happens too fast. Tara's not even cold yet, also within the first episode of them dating they practically have it that Kennedy saves Willow through loves true kiss LMAO.

2/ I think they sexualized it more than Willow and Tara. Other than Xanders creepy dream, Tara and Willow were treated normally, no fetishy "ooooooh girl on girl is hot." Whilst Willow and Kennedy? Nothing but that, with the worst bit being a "hahahaha look how gay Andrew is that he's not filming and perving over Willow and Kennedy shagging on the couch." Then there is that cringey montage of the Scoobies all shagging in the third last episode and The First being jealous of them. God I hate that bit. Definite director with hands down the pants moment. (Or writer.)

3/ They seemed to go out of their way to make Kennedy, well a bitch at times LOL. Again it wasn't even like they had her be rough and ruthless when it mattered or be a genuine foil to Buffy. All that stuff is fine. They deliberately did things like have her enjoy bullying other potentials for no reason, and only get to where she is at the top because she was shagging Willow, and other than her defending the girl to Buffy which was nice, there are no repercussions or moments where she grows or shows regret.

4/ She's part of the AWFUL potential slayer story that most people hate because it brought dozens of new characters to the already crowded cast and as she is the most iconic of them, well she becomes the face of that story (even if she wasn't even the worst part of it, IE they could have got away with maybe one or two potentials.)

5/ Also some people don't like the way she does pursue Willow a bit too aggressively. Again if that was a guy pursuing a woman like that then he'd probably be seen as entitled. (Then again people like Spike, but at least he has the decency to get his absolute arse kicked dozens of times and physically tortured for whole episodes LOL.)

 

[quillandfang]

1/ As you say it happens too fast. Tara's not even cold yet, also within the first episode of them dating they practically have it that Kennedy saves Willow through loves true kiss LMAO.

2/ I think they sexualized it more than Willow and Tara. Other than Xanders creepy dream, Tara and Willow were treated normally, no fetishy "ooooooh girl on girl is hot." Whilst Willow and Kennedy? Nothing but that, with the worst bit being a "hahahaha look how gay Andrew is that he's not filming and perving over Willow and Kennedy shagging on the couch." Then there is that cringey montage of the Scoobies all shagging in the third last episode and The First being jealous of them. God I hate that bit. Definite director with hands down the pants moment. (Or writer.)

3/ They seemed to go out of their way to make Kennedy, well a bitch at times LOL. Again it wasn't even like they had her be rough and ruthless when it mattered or be a genuine foil to Buffy. All that stuff is fine. They deliberately did things like have her enjoy bullying other potentials for no reason, and only get to where she is at the top because she was shagging Willow, and other than her defending the girl to Buffy which was nice, there are no repercussions or moments where she grows or shows regret.

4/ She's part of the AWFUL potential slayer story that most people hate because it brought dozens of new characters to the already crowded cast and as she is the most iconic of them, well she becomes the face of that story (even if she wasn't even the worst part of it, IE they could have got away with maybe one or two potentials.)

5/ Also some people don't like the way she does pursue Willow a bit too aggressively. Again if that was a guy pursuing a woman like that then he'd probably be seen as entitled. (Then again people like Spike, but at least he has the decency to get his absolute arse kicked dozens of times and physically tortured for whole episodes LOL.)

This pretty much exactly summarizes why I personally dislike Kennedy. Even when she was right, I feel she went about it in a really abrasive way, but that wasn't really something that was seen or developed as a flaw. Since again, she had so little time on the show. And the bullying of the potentials always bugged me too; in general she seems really entitled, from her pursuit of Willow to the way she acts like she's automatically in charge of the potentials before Faith arrives. To be fair, she is probably the most competent as well as the oldest, but that didn't give her the right to act superior. But yeah, I definitely doubt that the only reason she was disliked was because she replaced Tara or because she confronted Buffy.

Sadly so many bisexual people are often bullied into picking a side as it were.

Very true. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure that was even more the case when the show aired. Though it is still an issue. There's been several cases of female musicians and actresses who've come out as bi in the past few years, and have either been mislabeled as gay if they're dating a woman, or told they're faking it for attention if they date a man. And then when a female celebrity dates a woman and then a man, her fans act betrayed. I genuinely think some people either don't understand what the word "bisexual" means, or don't believe it really exists. It peeves me on their behalf.

Regarding Willow, I also believe she is bi. I like to think that in s4 when she was heartbroken over Oz but then started falling for Tara, she assumed she was a lesbian, perhaps because she subconsciously didn't want to think about dating a guy after that heartbreak, or because she didn't know that terminology. Legitimately, I know it was just the writers and producers working under the confines of the network and later some fan expectations, but it's interesting to think of what the psychology could be behind it.

I will say, it is kind of funny how often Willow's sexuality is debated in the fandom. This isn't a dig at you for bringing it up of course (I gave an opinion too), but I've been in Buffy spaces a much shorter time than most people here and I've already seen it a couple dozen times in comments sections and posts on various platforms haha.