Why didn't Buffy stake Spike in 'Beneath You'?

[katmobile]

Yes, in theory this is correct; forgiveness can be hard and a profoundly brave thing to do...but you need to show it, the process, the push and pull of conflicting emotions; to wanting to over the fear of. We JUST don't get that here, partly because the season is too crowded and things happen so quickly but also partly because, again, that's not the story the writers wanted to tell.
This was about Spike grand gesture to 'be better' and Buffy just accepts it. Do we really see her hesitation at all? In the first episode Spike lurches out of the dark and touches her face and...Buffy is just kinda confused, not shocked or angry or triggered by the sudden appearance of her attacker; its all 'oh, he's crazy and is covered in big scratches, how intriguing'.
It's only the next episode- with a different writer- that the even bother to show Buffy having any kind of reaction to Spike touching her. And again its just 'you're not telling me everything Spike....' wow, what a profound non-event to be confronted by the man who tried to rape you mere months ago. No struggle or hesitation, her friends are more anxious that Buffy is.
And after the episode, when the truth is revealed, they barely interact until 'come out of the basement', 'are you killing again, Spike', 'I believe in you Spike because you fought against your monster...' blah, blah, yawn.
It actually only really works if Buffy is blindly projecting onto Spike because she needs to believe that the soul is a good thing and not a burden-because she has been told over and over that she is the cause of it- at least that would give Buffy some skin in the game, some investment, some effort. Unfortunately that's probably just projection.

Buffy does come to some conclusions about her love life, but those realizations are almost entirely seperate from her relationship with Spike, and she shares her most intimate thoughts with Holden and Angel, never Spike.




I'll agree that Buffy takes Spike out of the basement, which isn't exactly a chore now, is it? She investigates Spike because of what Holden said, which has not one thing to do with Buffy and Spike's relationship; she's just wondering if he's killing people or not. And again, she just 'feels' that there's something more going on and the very next episode she's proclaiming that Spike 'fought to be a better man'.
I see no doubt, no struggle, no journey on Buffy's part regarding either the trauma Spike inflicted on her or him forcing his way back into her life.

If you want to see Buffy actively struggle with her complex feelings for a vampire I would direct you to Season 3, not Season 7



I know you love and are protective of Spike so you are bias but I think you're projecting and seeing something that just isn't there.

Also I've given you plenty of evidence that what I've said is there or at least is a matter for debate as have others. Everything else is really a matter for opinion is about the least contentious thing I can say really. Bias influences us but I'm at least willing to own it.

 

[thetopher]

Also I've given you plenty of evidence

No you didn't, you gave me a subjective opinion based on your bias without any examples or references.

Bias influences us but I'm at least willing to own it.

A person cannot 'own' their bias'; its a useless term. All they can do is put bias to one side and look at facts and events.
Also calling someone bias is not an argument or discussion point, it is a debate dead-end.

When she went to leave little Dawnie in his care.

So, to be clear, you're saying that Buffy leaving Dawn with Spike meant that she had already forgiven him and knew that deep down he wanted to help her?

I think it was more about keeping Dawn safe; hide her at Spike's, threaten Spike with death if anything happens to Dawn. It's not a great Buffy plan but its better than instantly intuiting Spike's motives.

The way soulless Angel behaved informed the intentions of soulless Spike and his actions, and the fact that, if he really wanted to hurt her, her simply pushing him off would not have stopped him.

So Buffy right away knew that Spike didn't mean it because he didn't try it again? It was sort of a halfhearted rape attempt? No 'oh crap she might fight back now' or 'there are two witches in the house who could easily flying pencil me to death so I better skedaddle'?

I don't see it, but if true then its baffling to have the rape attempt happen at all if it really were some non-event, like a big oppsie.
...Almost like it wasn't ever about Buffy in the first place and it was a cheap way to get Spike to go do what he was gonna do.

...I get it now. Thanks.

 

[Faded90]

Yes, in theory this is correct; forgiveness can be hard and a profoundly brave thing to do...but you need to show it, the process, the push and pull of conflicting emotions; to wanting to over the fear of. We JUST don't get that here, partly because the season is too crowded and things happen so quickly but also partly because, again, that's not the story the writers wanted to tell.
This was about Spike grand gesture to 'be better' and Buffy just accepts it. Do we really see her hesitation at all? In the first episode Spike lurches out of the dark and touches her face and...Buffy is just kinda confused, not shocked or angry or triggered by the sudden appearance of her attacker; its all 'oh, he's crazy and is covered in big scratches, how intriguing'.
It's only the next episode- with a different writer- that the even bother to show Buffy having any kind of reaction to Spike touching her. And again its just 'you're not telling me everything Spike....' wow, what a profound non-event to be confronted by the man who tried to rape you mere months ago. No struggle or hesitation, her friends are more anxious that Buffy is.
And after the episode, when the truth is revealed, they barely interact until 'come out of the basement', 'are you killing again, Spike', 'I believe in you Spike because you fought against your monster...' blah, blah, yawn.
It actually only really works if Buffy is blindly projecting onto Spike because she needs to believe that the soul is a good thing and not a burden-because she has been told over and over that she is the cause of it- at least that would give Buffy some skin in the game, some investment, some effort. Unfortunately that's probably just projection.

Buffy does come to some conclusions about her love life, but those realizations are almost entirely seperate from her relationship with Spike, and she shares her most intimate thoughts with Holden and Angel, never Spike.




I'll agree that Buffy takes Spike out of the basement, which isn't exactly a chore now, is it? She investigates Spike because of what Holden said, which has not one thing to do with Buffy and Spike's relationship; she's just wondering if he's killing people or not. And again, she just 'feels' that there's something more going on and the very next episode she's proclaiming that Spike 'fought to be a better man'.
I see no doubt, no struggle, no journey on Buffy's part regarding either the trauma Spike inflicted on her or him forcing his way back into her life.

If you want to see Buffy actively struggle with her complex feelings for a vampire I would direct you to Season 3, not Season 7



I know you love and are protective of Spike so you are bias but I think you're projecting and seeing something that just isn't there.

This. This is more noticeable during a binge (I admit I rarely watch much of S7 at all though) we see Buffy ‘I believe in you’ and then her doe eyes look in Showtime and I just don’t understand how we get there or how Buffy gets there? Honestly I think Buffy is simply used as a mouthpiece to tell us the audience of how much he’s apparently changed. And repeating ‘he has a soul now!’ doesn’t really wash when you spent the entirety of the season before showing us how awful humanity with souls can be.

We have 2 single occasions of Buffy pulling Spike innS7 and in both times he uses the ‘I got a soul for you’ card, in Get it Done even adding ‘the soul, the changes it’s what you wanted’ actually no it wasn’t Spike. She never once said this. Now this is fine if they were doing it to showcase a codependant emotionally gaslighting relationship but they weren’t. Instead you had writers waxing lyrical that S7 Spuffy is a ‘healthy mature relationship’. It’s not even remotely, instead it’s two people who look ridden with PTSD, miserable who can barely even have A conversation between them without some kind of awkwardness. We start the season with a sparky Buffy who looks happier than she has in about 2 seasons and progressively as Spike becomes ‘the only one there for her’ gets more and more miserable and looks on the edge of a total nervous breakdown. As much as I completely dismiss the comics from the headcanon the bizarre notion of what constitutes as ‘healthy Spuffy’ continues into them when we have Buffy guilted into getting back into a relationship with him and in comparison to S3 whereas Angel feeding from Buffy is quite rightly showcased as being f***ed up now we have Buffy having to let Spike feed frok her so he doesn’t go into a blood rage and this is now part and parcel of ‘healthy Spuffy’

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So Buffy right away knew that Spike didn't mean it because he didn't try it again? It was sort of a halfhearted rape attempt? No 'oh crap she might fight back now' or 'there are two witches in the house who could easily flying pencil me to death so I better skedaddle'?

She went to his crypt alone without any back-up. If she were worried about her safety she would not have done that. If she were worried about her safety she would have brought along some back-up other than a pipsqueak.

 

[thetopher]

This. This is more noticeable during a binge (I admit I rarely watch much of S7 at all though) we see Buffy ‘I believe in you’ and then her doe eyes look in Showtime and I just don’t understand how we get there or how Buffy gets there?

*nods* Kinda hollow isn't it?
For clarity I did not come to S7 looking to hate on Spike or whatever; the getting a soul....fine, clean slate. But the writing, the pacing, the dialogue, the endless 'soul talk' and empty 'belief' in each other. I can't invest in it. I want to. Why wouldn't I want to be invest in a show I very much enjoy most of the time? Am I really just a hater?

I just have certain standards I need met to suspend my disbelief. But my disbelief is NOT suspended, its right there in front of my face saying 'if Buffy is the only thing that Spike ihas ever been sure of then that's...well, that's kinda lame if you think about it. It's certainly a lot easier to experience selfless love when you have no identity or sense of self to speak of. What in fact are you risking, what are you putting above yourself when you have-admittedly-no real self?'
It's like being lovingly praised by a schizophrenic who thinks the king of the moon controls the ants in his brain and that's why he can't move diagonally. The praise is..lessened somewhat.

We have 2 single occasions of Buffy pulling Spike innS7 and in both times he uses the ‘I got a soul for you’ card, in Get it Done even adding ‘the soul, the changes it’s what you wanted’ actually no it wasn’t Spike. She never once said this. Now this is fine if they were doing it to showcase a codependant emotionally gaslighting relationship but they weren’t. Instead you had writers waxing lyrical that S7 Spuffy is a ‘healthy mature relationship’. It’s not even remotely, instead it’s two people who look ridden with PTSD, miserable who can barely even have A conversation between them without some kind of awkwardness.

Hm, maybe you are just bias. You should own your bias and then you can see how great Spuffy is. I think that's how it works. 🙂

 

[Buffy Summers]

...Almost like it wasn't ever about Buffy in the first place and it was a cheap way to get Spike to go do what he was gonna do.

...I get it now. Thanks.

Let's calm down and leave the snarkiness at the door.

Hm, maybe you are just bias. You should own your bias and then you can see how great Spuffy is. I think that's how it works. 🙂

This is completely unnecessary. You made your point earlier, there is no need to be mean in this way.

 

[thetopher]

Let's calm down and leave the snarkiness at the door.

While I will put my hand up and apologize for the 'bias' joke, I wasn't being snarky with @Spanky; we were having a discussion and I came to a realization because of where that discussion went- whether they intended it or not- and so I thanked them.
The thanks was genuine, although I guess I could've made myself clearer with an emoji or something.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well then I apologize for reading that as snark.

 

[Skeletor Rigby]

We start the season with a sparky Buffy who looks happier than she has in about 2 seasons and progressively as Spike becomes ‘the only one there for her’ gets more and more miserable and looks on the edge of a total nervous breakdown. As much as I completely dismiss the comics from the headcanon the bizarre notion of what constitutes as ‘healthy Spuffy’ continues into them when we have Buffy guilted into getting back into a relationship with him and in comparison to S3 whereas Angel feeding from Buffy is quite rightly showcased as being f***ed up now we have Buffy having to let Spike feed frok her so he doesn’t go into a blood rage and this is now part and parcel of ‘healthy Spuffy’

Maybe her progressively getting 'more and more miserable' and looking on the 'edge of a nervous breakdown' is because the biggest evil she has ever come up against is ramping up throughout the season, her home is being taken over by a nonstop stream of young girls whom she feels entirely responsible for who keep dying, she's trying to figure out how to be a General, a role that is antithetical to being the Slayer, her own Watcher is going behind her back and trying to get the person she feels 'has her back' killed, is leading missions where one of her best friends is severely injured and several more girls are killed, and is kicked out of her own house, a decision that is supported by literally everyone including her best friends, sister and father figure, for proposing a mission that she ends up being right about.

In the comics, Buffy is not 'guilted' into a relationship with Spike. She pursues him and he initially turns her down and for good reasons that show him prioritizing himself and his own heart's well-being over Buffy and her feared-to-be-fleeting desires. When he does decide to enter into a relationship with her (after a conversation with Xander of all people) they have any number of yes, healthy and mature conversations about their relationship and their past (including the sexual assault which is given more time and care than the show gave it) and the reason I absolutely bought that they could get to such a place in the first place is because of the foundation that was built in S7. If you were referring to S7 however and I misunderstood, Buffy's not guilted into a relationship there either, she chooses to help Spike, she chooses to support him and invest in him and later depend on him. No one is making her do that, certainly not Spike who at one point tells Buffy she should kill him because of the First's hold on him and at another point offers to leave because the First isn't done with him like they thought. She's given outs re: him and she chooses not to take them every time. She has full agency here. There are any number of reasons why she chooses to engage with him and in the ways she does, and guilt may play into it to a degree, especially in the beginning, and I'm sure it does, but that is not nearly all there is.

As for the feeding, I don't remember it being portrayed as remotely ok at all. The situation was f*cked up and neither of them wanted to do it or were comfortable with it. There's a whole thread discussing it here: Feeding Spike

 

[Faded90]

Maybe her progressively getting 'more and more miserable' and looking on the 'edge of a nervous breakdown' is because the biggest evil she has ever come up against is ramping up throughout the season, her home is being taken over by a nonstop stream of young girls whom she feels entirely responsible for who keep dying, she's trying to figure out how to be a General, a role that is antithetical to being the Slayer, her own Watcher is going behind her back and trying to get the person she feels 'has her back' killed, is leading missions where one of her best friends is severely injured and several more girls are killed, and is kicked out of her own house, a decision that is supported by literally everyone including her best friends, sister and father figure, for proposing a mission that she ends up being right about.

In the comics, Buffy is not 'guilted' into a relationship with Spike. She pursues him and he initially turns her down and for good reasons that show him prioritizing himself and his own heart's well-being over Buffy and her feared-to-be-fleeting desires. When he does decide to enter into a relationship with her (after a conversation with Xander of all people) they have any number of yes, healthy and mature conversations about their relationship and their past (including the sexual assault which is given more time and care than the show gave it) and the reason I absolutely bought that they could get to such a place in the first place is because of the foundation that was built in S7. If you were referring to S7 however and I misunderstood, Buffy's not guilted into a relationship there either, she chooses to help Spike, she chooses to support him and invest in him and later depend on him. No one is making her do that, certainly not Spike who at one point tells Buffy she should kill him because of the First's hold on him and at another point offers to leave because the First isn't done with him like they thought. She's given outs re: him and she chooses not to take them every time. She has full agency here. There are any number of reasons why she chooses to engage with him and in the ways she does, and guilt may play into it to a degree, especially in the beginning, and I'm sure it does, but that is not nearly all there is.

As for the feeding, I don't remember it being portrayed as remotely ok at all. The situation was f*cked up and neither of them wanted to do it or were comfortable with it. There's a whole thread discussing it here: Feeding Spike

I meant this is how the story constantly has to do to make Spuffy make. Buffy has to be miserable, she has to be cut off from her friends. Spike has to be the ONLY person apparently there for her. It’s just nauseating to me

In the comics Buffy is absolutely guilted into getting back with him. Not by Spike though and I acknowledge that. But by a tantrumming Dawn and also Willow agreeing with her ‘yeah Buffy he’s a better guy than he used to be’. Honestly this scene is an insult to both Willow and Dawn’s characters that the writers believe they’d feel like Spike is entitled to have Buffy back simply because he’s better than he used to be (it’s also an insanely low bar). We then get Spike using almost the exact same slut shaming speech Xander gave to Buffy 2 seasons prior. Because how dare Buffy have sex with other people and then want a relationship with them. How dare she right? I will say I find the comics genuinely insulting to the Buffyverse though and I also include the multiple crazy excuses Buffy gives about the AR such as ‘well I’ve had worse things happen to me…. Like my Mother and Father separating’

Honestly reading that thread I found a lot of the responses kind of scary. Like ‘aww isn’t it so sweeet Buffy is weakening herself for Spike’ NO why should she have to? Why is Buffy still having to make these f***ed up decisions for her vampire boyfriends. It’s insanely unhealthy for her. Reading through that thread reminds me that actually maybes it isn’t portrayed as healthy but there’s actually a lot of abusive language used such as Buffy having to do it and weaken herself to keep her boyfriend calm, Spike then having to say it’ll be the last time. Buffy having to push Spike off her before it goes too far. It actually highlights how insanely f***ed up Spuffy will always be. Thanks for reminding me of thag though 😉 it highlights why I always feel a vampire relationship endgame for Buffy would be incredibly bleak and I want better for her than that

 

[Priceless]

I don't know which issues you are reading, and I haven't read them for a while, but I distinctly remember Spike having a conversation with Koh and saying he thinks Buffy and Dowling should get together and that he's stepping out of the way, although he still says he loves her.

It's Buffy who goes after Spike IIRC. What scene is it that Dawn and Willow push Buffy into having a relationship with him? What is the slut shaming speech Spike gives that's so similar to Xander's?

You are making me need to re-read these comics, because none of this rings any bells for me.

 

[katmobile]

I meant this is how the story constantly has to do to make Spuffy make. Buffy has to be miserable, she has to be cut off from her friends. Spike has to be the ONLY person apparently there for her. It’s just nauseating to me

In the comics Buffy is absolutely guilted into getting back with him. Not by Spike though and I acknowledge that. But by a tantrumming Dawn and also Willow agreeing with her ‘yeah Buffy he’s a better guy than he used to be’. Honestly this scene is an insult to both Willow and Dawn’s characters that the writers believe they’d feel like Spike is entitled to have Buffy back simply because he’s better than he used to be (it’s also an insanely low bar). We then get Spike using almost the exact same slut shaming speech Xander gave to Buffy 2 seasons prior. Because how dare Buffy have sex with other people and then want a relationship with them. How dare she right? I will say I find the comics genuinely insulting to the Buffyverse though and I also include the multiple crazy excuses Buffy gives about the AR such as ‘well I’ve had worse things happen to me…. Like my Mother and Father separating’

Honestly reading that thread I found a lot of the responses kind of scary. Like ‘aww isn’t it so sweeet Buffy is weakening herself for Spike’ NO why should she have to? Why is Buffy still having to make these f***ed up decisions for her vampire boyfriends. It’s insanely unhealthy for her. Reading through that thread reminds me that actually maybes it isn’t portrayed as healthy but there’s actually a lot of abusive language used such as Buffy having to do it and weaken herself to keep her boyfriend calm, Spike then having to say it’ll be the last time. Buffy having to push Spike off her before it goes too far. It actually highlights how insanely f***ed up Spuffy will always be. Thanks for reminding me of thag though 😉 it highlights why I always feel a vampire relationship endgame for Buffy would be incredibly bleak and I want better for her than that

Ok context we see Willow have to make equally effed decisions she's uncomfortable with because that's what living in that situation makes you do. I've studied Nazi ghettos and that made people running them make horrible lesser of two evils choices. The same people who complain about Spuffys finding it moving that Buffy was willing to try and strike a balance between preserving herself and not letting a beloved starve and lose control in a situation he could not afford to which is illustrated later when he lies to her about how well he's coping and it bites him in the bum - they maybe the same people who thought it was sexy and cute that Buffy arguably even more recklessly risks her life to save Angel in an equally desperate situation neither of them created.

I don't know which issues you are reading, and I haven't read them for a while, but I distinctly remember Spike having a conversation with Koh and saying he thinks Buffy and Dowling should get together and that he's stepping out of the way, although he still says he loves her.

It's Buffy who goes after Spike IIRC. What scene is it that Dawn and Willow push Buffy into having a relationship with him? What is the slut shaming speech Spike gives that's so similar to Xander's?

You are making me need to re-read these comics, because none of this rings any bells for me.

It's because it's filtered through their own preduices but re reading Buffy seasons ten and eleven is never wrong.

 

[Priceless]

It's because it's filtered through their own preduices but re reading Buffy seasons ten and eleven is never wrong.

I absolutely love Seasons 10 and 11 (I love all the comics really). They set my Spuffy heart a-flutter 😁 The slow burn of a growing Spuffy relationship that really works is beautiful to see.

 

[Faded90]

I don't know which issues you are reading, and I haven't read them for a while, but I distinctly remember Spike having a conversation with Koh and saying he thinks Buffy and Dowling should get together and that he's stepping out of the way, although he still says he loves her.

It's Buffy who goes after Spike IIRC. What scene is it that Dawn and Willow push Buffy into having a relationship with him? What is the slut shaming speech Spike gives that's so similar to Xander's?

You are making me need to re-read these comics, because none of this rings any bells for me.

Season 10 issue 11 - Dawn asks why Buffy isn’t giving Spike another chance. Buffy explains that there’s a lot of not nice history there (a more than fair point). Dawn then says that was before he got a soul and she hasn’t even given him another chance (why does she have to?)we then see Dawn storm off saying that Buffy only gets with people who are unattainable (not true) and that she’s not getting back together with him because she doesn’t want to be happy. Of course! That’s the only reason, Buffy having reservations about this relationship are all just Buffy being cray cray and not wanting to be happy. Who cares about Buffy’s very reasonable issues with it, it’s all silly Buffy’s fault. Willow then agrees she has a point - she doesn’t . The next issue has Spike running through Buffy’s irrelevant relationship history - this is almost exactly what Xander said to her in S8 even ending it with the same ‘when you’re clearly not gay!’ line. He then says what’s to say Buffy doesn’t suddenly decide a month later she wants to be with Andrew or Giles instead. This should have ended with Buffy walking away from this manchild but instead it bizarrely ends with them back together. What about the multiple people Spike has been with since the show? Does Buffy bring them up? Does she say it’s irrelevant if he wants to be with her because he’s had sex with other people? No because that’s fine, it’s only Buffy who needs to stick with one person and have her sexual history brought up as a weapon against her

 

[Priceless]

Season 10, the first arc is Love Dares You and is about everyone's relationships. It's all about the gang trying to figure out their relationships. I think that context is important to the story because everyone is putting their own issues onto Buffy.

Willow is scared she can't trust and Dawn is scared because she can't be honest. Trust and honesty, two things that Spuffy has had issues with in the past. Dawn accuses Buffy of trying to push her back with Xander, and that's what forces her to push back about Buffy not being with Spike. Dawn goes on to say 'Have you even given him a chance since? Have you given anyone a chance?' - it's not solely about Spike, it's about how Buffy has shut herself off from anyone romantically, and that's what Willow is agreeing with.

As for what Spike says in the next scene, I think his reaction is completely understandable. He's scared Buffy is only using him, and that's a valid concern considering their past. It's true Buffy was only interested in Xander when he was with Dawn (though the reasons for it were deeper than that), she did sleep with 'mad god' Angel and Satsu, when she isn't gay.

It's not about who Buffy has slept with, (she didn't sleep with Xander but he made the list), it's about all the people she's cared about instead of him. It's analogous to Willow's speech to Xander when she says something like 'It means you'd rather be with someone you hate, than be with me' re Cordy. I agree it is a poor way to react, and as soon as Buffy says 'sod you Spike', he realises he's messed up.

 

[Faded90]

Season 10, the first arc is Love Dares You and is about everyone's relationships. It's all about the gang trying to figure out their relationships. I think that context is important to the story because everyone is putting their own issues onto Buffy.

Willow is scared she can't trust and Dawn is scared because she can't be honest. Trust and honesty, two things that Spuffy has had issues with in the past. Dawn accuses Buffy of trying to push her back with Xander, and that's what forces her to push back about Buffy not being with Spike. Dawn goes on to say 'Have you even given him a chance since? Have you given anyone a chance?' - it's not solely about Spike, it's about how Buffy has shut herself off from anyone romantically, and that's what Willow is agreeing with.

As for what Spike says in the next scene, I think his reaction is completely understandable. He's scared Buffy is only using him, and that's a valid concern considering their past. It's true Buffy was only interested in Xander when he was with Dawn (though the reasons for it were deeper than that), she did sleep with 'mad god' Angel and Satsu, when she isn't gay.

It's not about who Buffy has slept with, (she didn't sleep with Xander but he made the list), it's about all the people she's cared about instead of him. It's analogous to Willow's speech to Xander when she says something like 'It means you'd rather be with someone you hate, than be with me' re Cordy. I agree it is a poor way to react, and as soon as Buffy says 'sod you Spike', he realises he's messed up.

I think the ‘here’s your relationship history’ talk mostly didn’t work because when he’s doing his ‘you only want people who are unattainable’ he conveniently leaves out Riley who was very much attainable. He also says that Angel would have happily played happy families when he was a ‘boring PI’ which isn’t even remotely true. When Angel was a ‘boring PI’ he left so that he and Buffy wouldn’t be together, it’s completely untrue that Buffy was only interested in Angel when he was ‘mad god’ because come on her and Angel have huge history prior to that. Buffy sleeping with Satsu had nothing to do with him either, Spike wasn’t even in her life at that moment in time so it was totally irrelevant

I actuallly think it’s majorly OOC for Spike to slut shame her like that. There’s no way TV Spike even before he got a soul would have done that. To be honest most of my criticism is aimed at the comics themselves than the characters. I completely refuse to hold comic actions against the tv characters. I just find the way the comics frame certain scenarios completely bizarre particularly what they regard as ‘healthy’ within Spuffy

 

[katmobile]

Season 10 issue 11 - Dawn asks why Buffy isn’t giving Spike another chance. Buffy explains that there’s a lot of not nice history there (a more than fair point). Dawn then says that was before he got a soul and she hasn’t even given him another chance (why does she have to?)we then see Dawn storm off saying that Buffy only gets with people who are unattainable (not true) and that she’s not getting back together with him because she doesn’t want to be happy. Of course! That’s the only reason, Buffy having reservations about this relationship are all just Buffy being cray cray and not wanting to be happy. Who cares about Buffy’s very reasonable issues with it, it’s all silly Buffy’s fault. Willow then agrees she has a point - she doesn’t . The next issue has Spike running through Buffy’s irrelevant relationship history - this is almost exactly what Xander said to her in S8 even ending it with the same ‘when you’re clearly not gay!’ line. He then says what’s to say Buffy doesn’t suddenly decide a month later she wants to be with Andrew or Giles instead. This should have ended with Buffy walking away from this manchild but instead it bizarrely ends with them back together. What about the multiple people Spike has been with since the show? Does Buffy bring them up? Does she say it’s irrelevant if he wants to be with her because he’s had sex with other people? No because that’s fine, it’s only Buffy who needs to stick with one person and have her sexual history brought up as a weapon against her

I think the ‘here’s your relationship history’ talk mostly didn’t work because when he’s doing his ‘you only want people who are unattainable’ he conveniently leaves out Riley who was very much attainable. He also says that Angel would have happily played happy families when he was a ‘boring PI’ which isn’t even remotely true. When Angel was a ‘boring PI’ he left so that he and Buffy wouldn’t be together, it’s completely untrue that Buffy was only interested in Angel when he was ‘mad god’ because come on her and Angel have huge history prior to that. Buffy sleeping with Satsu had nothing to do with him either, Spike wasn’t even in her life at that moment in time so it was totally irrelevant

I actuallly think it’s majorly OOC for Spike to slut shame her like that. There’s no way TV Spike even before he got a soul would have done that. To be honest most of my criticism is aimed at the comics themselves than the characters. I completely refuse to hold comic actions against the tv characters. I just find the way the comics frame certain scenarios completely bizarre particularly what they regard as ‘healthy’ within Spuffy

Jane Austen 'those who are angry are not wise' sub the word scared for angry and that.

Also you talk as if only Buffy could find some guy who wasn't a vamp she could have a nice happy life soz but Buffy has a few more problems than that - she didn't develop depression because of Spike or even Angel or even Riley.

 

[Priceless]

I think the ‘here’s your relationship history’ talk mostly didn’t work because when he’s doing his ‘you only want people who are unattainable’ he conveniently leaves out Riley who was very much attainable.

He only included mad-god Angel, so I supposed he was talking about people she'd had an interest in post season 7, a time when they could have been together.

He also says that Angel would have happily played happy families when he was a ‘boring PI’ which isn’t even remotely true. When Angel was a ‘boring PI’ he left so that he and Buffy wouldn’t be together,

He's thinking about his time at W&H, seeing Angel with Nina and Eve. He doesn't know about Angel and Buffy's one day together. This is of course all from Spike's pov and he believes that if Buffy had wanted a relationship Angel would have tried.

I actuallly think it’s majorly OOC for Spike to slut shame her like that. There’s no way TV Spike even before he got a soul would have done that. To be honest most of my criticism is aimed at the comics themselves than the characters. I completely refuse to hold comic actions against the tv characters. I just find the way the comics frame certain scenarios completely bizarre particularly what they regard as ‘healthy’ within Spuffy

I don't think Spike is slut shaming Buffy. He's not talking about sex, he's talking about emotion, about being close to someone that is other than him, then on a whim she turns to him.

 

[Faded90]

Jane Austen 'those who are angry are not wise' sub the word scared for angry and that.

Also you talk as if only Buffy could find some guy who wasn't a vamp she could have a nice happy life soz but Buffy has a few more problems than that - she didn't develop depression because of Spike or even Angel or even Riley.

I’ve no idea what your top quote is supposed to indicate but ok

I don’t think Buffy can have a ‘nice happy life’. I think she’ll always be a slayer and will always live a slayer life. That doesn’t mean she can’t be with someone human and I just don’t see a vampire relationship as being happy for her long term. This has been clear since S3. I agree I don’t think Buffy’s depression is caused by any of the men in her life

 

[thetopher]

That doesn’t mean she can’t be with someone human and I just don’t see a vampire relationship as being happy for her long term. This has been clear since S3.

Thankfully even Buffy realizes this sometime between Season 11 and 12 which is why she and Spike break up (so monumentally important was this relationship that they didn't even bother showing us!). It's pretty much canon now that Buffy realizes that her dating vampires leads nowhere good.
I mean, it took her 14 years but she finally caught on.

Tbh the comics do very few of the characters favors; when you contrive to write for the fans then not only will you get bad plots, you'll get poor characterization.