What is "Vampire" Love? Should Humans Be on the Receiving End?

[NoShip]

In multiple interviews, Joss Whedon tells us that Vampire Love is selfish and obsessive and toxic. He brings the receipts in various episodes of BTVS.
Many viewers disagree and point at various episodes of BTVS.

Is there any way to square this circle?

 

[garfan]

Does anyone else ever think about how the only people we hear extol the virtues of passion in relationships are bad guys, but the fans treat those claims about it as true

 

[NotASlayer]

Vampire love, as depicted, is possessive and narcissistic. It's love with the love taken out, because it is all about the person, not the one they claim to love. Without a soul, vampires can't love like a human can (yes, humans can and do behave the same way, but they have the option). With a soul, they can be more like humans, in that there is finally an option.

It is probably noteworthy that Spike only insisted he loved Buffy when he lacked a soul.

 

[garfan]

Vampire love, as depicted, is possessive and narcissistic. It's love with the love taken out, because it is all about the person, not the one they claim to love. Without a soul, vampires can't love like a human can (yes, humans can and do behave the same way, but they have the option). With a soul, they can be more like humans, in that there is finally an option.

It is probably noteworthy that Spike only insisted he loved Buffy when he lacked a soul.

Maybe but it could also be thought he knew what he did was terrible, and it would suck to do it to Buffy

 

[NotASlayer]

Maybe but it could also be thought he knew what he did was terrible, and it would suck to do it to Buffy

Except we know he had no remorse for any of his actions until well into Angel S5 and literally said something along the lines of not caring about redemption.

 

[NoShip]

I

 

[garfan]

Except we know he had no remorse for any of his actions until well into Angel S5 and literally said something along the lines of not caring about redemption.

we all know that the First was able to **** with his head more successfully than anyone else it dealt with and their should be a reason for that

Plus Spike was also told to act like his old self. And frankly I think of Spike as a poser

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 3:46 PM

I

I think something got cut off

 

[wolfheart]

I think vampires are lonely creatures, only a human turned vampire can act as love interest, humans considered cattle by vampires.
Yiou will say and Buffy and Angel then? They are the exception on this matter( my humble opinion)

 

[garfan]

I think vampires are lonely creatures, only a human turned vampire can act as love interest, humans considered cattle by vampires.
Yiou will say and Buffy and Angel then? They are the exception on this matter( my humble opinion)

that overlooks turning humans. Humans are a lot of different things to vampires

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

My basic argument on this topic is that Vampires are capable of "teenage boy love," they are capable of infatuation, they are capable of lust, they are capable of desire. But they aren't capable of sacrifice, they aren't capable of compassion, they can't see the Image of God (YMMV) in someone else, they can't see someone as anyone but a means to an end.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

My basic argument on this topic is that Vampires are capable of "teenage boy love," they are capable of infatuation, they are capable of lust, they are capable of desire. But they aren't capable of sacrifice, they aren't capable of compassion, they can't see the Image of God (YMMV) in someone else, they can't see someone as anyone but a means to an end.

I wouldn't say they were incapable of sacrifice. Darla sacrificed herself for her son. Spike was tortured to give up the identity of Dawn as the Key. It is possible for them to sacrifice themselves if they see a greater purpose.

 

[thrasherpix]

I don't think Darla sacrificing herself for her son should count as she shared in a soul, and sacrificed herself because she knew when the baby was born that she'd be without a soul and unable to even remember loving it. That is, she was protecting the infant from her vampire self while she still had enough soul to do so.

But Spike resisting Glory does imply they can sacrifice. I'm trying to remember all that he did for Dru and Buffy (without a soul) and it does seem he was more than most. Even the Judge said Spike was full of humanity with his love for Dru (presumably, can't recall if it was defined as that).

 

[hoponlilmama]

we all know that the First was able to **** with his head more successfully than anyone else it dealt with and their should be a reason for that

Spike throughout s6 shows us he's still a jerk, even all soul-having. That's an odd excuse to make for him.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:21 AM

I don't think Darla sacrificing herself for her son should count as she shared in a soul, and sacrificed herself because she knew when the baby was born that she'd be without a soul and unable to even remember loving it. That is, she was protecting the infant from her vampire self while she still had enough soul to do so.

She was feeling things via Connor's soul, so it should count.

But Spike resisting Glory does imply they can sacrifice. I'm trying to remember all that he did for Dru and Buffy (without a soul) and it does seem he was more than most. Even the Judge said Spike was full of humanity with his love for Dru (presumably, can't recall if it was defined as that).

The judge said they share 'affection'. Not love.

Post automatically merged: Today at 3:23 AM

Vampire love, as depicted, is possessive and narcissistic. It's love with the love taken out, because it is all about the person, not the one they claim to love. Without a soul, vampires can't love like a human can (yes, humans can and do behave the same way, but they have the option). With a soul, they can be more like humans, in that there is finally an option.

I think that's a fair assessment.

It is probably noteworthy that Spike only insisted he loved Buffy when he lacked a soul.

Interesting. I never really thought of that.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I really can't see anyone's view of the benefits of a vampire having a soul, the prisons all over this world have countless mass murderers in them, mass murderers who have a soul.
How many vampire mass murderers are there?

 

[NotASlayer]

Interesting. I never really thought of that.

It's the sort of thing that would happen if, say, someone incapable of love gained the capacity and then was able to look back and realise all they felt was obsession.

I really can't see anyone's view of the benefits of a vampire having a soul, the prisons all over this world have countless mass murderers in them, mass murderers who have a soul.
How many vampire mass murderers are there?

Souls in the Buffyverse are made overly important, especially when it comes to Spike. Mere possession of a soul does not make someone good. Amy's mother, the Zookeeper, the swim coach, the school nurse, Gwendolyn Post, the school cook, the Trio, Caleb, even the Mayor at one point all had souls and it didn't make them good, and there are more.

What a soul seems to do is give someone the potential to be good. It doesn't make them that way. It seems to be more the equivalent of a conscience that may or may not be listened to.

Giving Spike a soul and leaving him on the show was a terrible writing decision. With Angel, Angel had a soul for nearly a century, and we were able to see his struggles over that period. With Spike, the need to have him around and functional meant they couldn't show any struggle for him. No decades of remorse and wandering; instead we got zero remorse and a rapidly functional Spike.

If redeeming a vampire was as easy as giving them a soul, then this makes the Scoobies look bad. Once it was found out how to stick a soul back into Angel, the Scoobies should have done more research and gone around sticking souls into vampires left, right and centre if that was all it took to make them good.

 

[garfan]

If redeeming a vampire was as easy as giving them a soul, then this makes the Scoobies look bad. Once it was found out how to stick a soul back into Angel, the Scoobies should have done more research and gone around sticking souls into vampires left, right and centre if that was all it took to make them good.

the souls don't deserve that

 

[thetopher]

I think love, like a lot of emotions, has positive and negative aspects. Love can be caring, nurturing, passionate, self-sacrificial but love can also be selfish, self-indulgent, obsessive.
I think the mistake that some in the fandom make is to point to the negative aspects- as often depicted by vampires- and say 'that isn't love!' or 'that's not real love' because they seem to think that love (especially romantic love) is always positive and good. It is always something praiseworthy.

For example; I have no doubt that Darla's love for Angelus was real and genuine. I just don't think it matters, at all, because they are demonic creatures that slaughter thousands of innocents. Sure, it makes them more interesting to watch and gives them a 'more human' aspect but it doesn't make me think they are any less deserving of a stake through the heart.

I've fallen into the trap myself; I've claimed that Spike's love for Buffy wasn't 'real' love because vampires can't love; but vampiric love is just a reflection of the darker aspects of that human emotion. What I really meant was that it wasn't a deep or reciprocal love.

Another argument is that Spike's capacity to love (for Buffy) is what redeems him but I think that's a severely rose-tinted view of events; he never actually knows Buffy, he might respect her ability to kick his ass when he tries to murder her and he might lust after her but that kind of love is shallow and not worthy of consideration by many. I also would say that it doesn't really change after he gets a soul (the thing that actually makes the possibility of redemption a reality)
Also its never meaningfully reciprocated by Buffy so I'm not sure how much she respects his affections overall. But I guess that's why we have Buffy boards to debate that sort of thing.

So vampire love does represent the darker, more problematic aspects of real human love. And that side of love has always been fascinating to many and so explored, from the highs of Wuthering Heights to the lows of modern BookTok slop.