What are your thoughts on "Spike" being Buffy's last line in the show?

[NotASlayer]

Taking a look at things, starting with Spike "fighting to get his soul back." As has been pointed out, Spike loves fighting; he was ecstatic in "Doomed" to find he could hit something. Having to fight a bunch of demons is more of his idea of an enjoyable way to spend a day than a sacrifice. Yes, in Sunnydale, he suffered some pain, but Spike is also shown to be at least something of a masochist. So, not really as big of an issue as it could be.

His "suffering" in the basement is so laughably pathetic it's even called out in-universe for this. Angel, on getting a soul, spent decades suffering for it. Spike spent a couple of weeks in a basement slightly mad. Why the difference? Angel was overcome by guilt for what he did; Spike felt none. He didn't apologise to anyone for anything he had done, literally said he didn't believe in redemption and didn't have any problems walking around in the skin coat taken from Nikki's corpse in front of her son. Yet somehow we're expected to believe that Spike, who showed no remorse for anything he had done even after getting a soul, was somehow so overcome with remorse without a soul chose to get one. Him being betrayed by the demon and given a soul not the chip out at least fits what's shown.

And then there's his coming back to Sunnydale. Rather than reading as if this was done for love, this reads as if someone found a list of behaviours for narcissistic abusers and started checking them off.

Refusal to allow his victim to get on with her life? Check.
Refusal to take responsibility for any of his actions? Check.
Blame his wrongdoings on his victim? Check.
Lack of guilt over his actions? Check.
Demand gratitude for something he chose to do? Check.
Separate his victim from everyone else in her life? Check.
Make his victim believe she can only depend on him? Check, and Buffy saying this was such an enormous red flag and indication that something was very badly wrong with her that it should not have been overlooked.

It took Spike seeing Hell with a soul, knowing he was going to go back there and getting his hands chopped off for him to finally start feeling remorse for anything he had done.

 

[hoponlilmama]

If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town? He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super healthy, but Spike sacrificed a lot for Buffy. What did Angel sacrifice?

Just because he left, it didn't mean he loved her any less. You think you're making a point and getting a one-up that somehow Angel is the loser or somehow loved Buffy less. It's not the gotcha point you think it is.

He recognised the hurt and that he couldn't give her the life she deserved. Walking away to give someone wings is tough. Spike didn't do that.

Also, he walked away because he got his own show - a point we can't avoid really! 😉😂

What did Spike sacrifice? He got a soul after trying to violently rape Buffy and hung it over her head.

Right, you don't ship them, I do.

I know this.

If you say so!

I do. Just because I'm not a Spuffy and I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong.

I think people are making too much of the fact that it is the last word. Buffy was asked what caused the sinkhole to devour Sunnydale and she answered, "Spike." This was factually true - the pendant he wore did it and he stayed until the Turok Han genocide was complete. I don't see any shipping significance to it.

Exactly. If it had been Willow, Faith or Angel who had been in place instead, would we be talking about it being some deep and meaningful reference? No.
As you stated, Buffy was answering Giles.

You gave the accurate answer. You ship Spuffy. @hoponlilmama doesn't. Spuffies and non-Spuffies (like me) just aren't going to agree.

Indeed. This is not a Spuffy forum. People have every right to either hate Spike as a character, dislike Spuffy as a ship etc. And everyone has the right to refute points of debate.

And yet he still taunted Buffy about the attempted rape "Guess this would be first touch since you-know-when", made it all about himself "I've changed", never acknowledged any of the trauma he put her through, literally said he couldn't apologise for sexually assaulting her, showed zero remorse when confronted with the son of the Slayer he murdered, still wore said murdered Slayer's coat as trophy and victim-blamed Buffy while playing the victim. I don't see any "tremendous suffering" there.

Not only that, he taunted her about, "another round on the balcony" where he raped her in Dead Things. In front of the others, which would only serve to humiliate Buffy.

Further in the season when he and Faith are talking in the basement, this exchange was gross:

Faith: Don't tell me little Miss-Tightly-Wound's been getting her naughty on?
Spike: Not of late

Listen to the disappointment in his voice. As if he expected to once again be having sex with Buffy after he'd gotten his soul. Also serving to cut her down by telling Faith about the fact Buffy had sex with Spike. And good ol' William, not telling her how things ended with Spike trying to rape her. What a guy!

He went crazy in a basement for two weeks and then was back to acting like pre-souled Spike. The soul should be a burden, he should be feeling all the guilt after 100+ years of murder and mayhem. But I guess they couldn't have another brooding vampire - audiences didn't like it.

Just my two cents, I think there's a lot of difference shown between Angel/Angelus than from Spike/Spike. Season 7 Spike was too much like season 5 Spike to me rather than a different being. Had they SHOWN the change more then I'd buy it more. For example, if Spike gave his coat to Robin and showed remorse, saying it was no longer him, then I'd have seen him different (he could even still threaten Robin if he tried to kill him again, once he gave up the jacket).

As it is, Spike didn't feel truly different to me until he was on Angel. And that strongly impacts how I view Spuffy, even in season 7.

If the writers really wanted to rehab Spike's image, they failed miserably. Even I can say if Spike had acted differently, I could warm to his situation more.

The main example is the one you mentioned, thrasherpix; giving the coat back to Robin would've gone far in the eyes of the audience. Spike apologising to Buffy (and for the record, Faith should also have apologised!). He doesn't bother to try and interact with anyone except for Buffy and treats them with contempt.

And you are right, we really don't see Spike changing until he's over on AtS. Even then he's still acting like a jerk in the beginning, but he starts to come around.

I'd say yes on account of a lot of The First's efforts being on him. He was either gonna be essential to losing or to winning and him overcoming the trigger without lasting damage it's what you might find underwhelming but it was a resolution. He saved the world and gave Buffy strength to get the scythe and turn the potentials into slayers which is the final aim of the season. Now we could discuss to no end if he was really necessary or if they did it satisfyingly but that's what the show told us.

I don't think Spike was that central to the First's plans. Otherwise it would've triggered Spike and have him slaughter the potentials in the house. The First was trying to destroy the Slayer line. So why twiddle your thumbs? Or Spike could've killed the most powerful person - Willow. That storyline just petered out into nothing.

S7 unfortunately became the Spike and Buffy show: Spike comes back and crazy in the basement, Buffy takes care of him. Spike is triggered, Buffy takes care of him. Spike's chip starts malfunctioning Buffy takes care of him. It's all an obvious ploy to push their 'relationship' whilst turning the rest of the central cast into background figures.

I definitely feel Buffy is pressured to take responsibility where she isn't responsible. At the same time, it is not dissimilar to her and Angel after he comes back from Hell. She feels guilt for both triggering Angelus and for sending Angel to Hell, and she takes care of him. Angel never apologized for what he did as Angelus.

For the record, Angel should've apologised. To Buffy and to the Scoobies.

The difference here though is she loves Angel and that's why she takes care of him when he returns.

With Spike, she was completely guilted into it. The optics are terrible. He tries to rape her, leaves and then comes back into her life. Spike is not Buffy's responsibility, yet somehow that's how it ends up and she's there to coddle her abuser and rapist.

I find S7 a great deal more upsetting because it is, like you described, the show is making her up to be the bad guy, while extending a lot of generosity to Spike, but I don't know that I could describe either guy as forcing Buffy to coddle her abuser. Spike was crazy in the beginning, ashamed of her help and did offer to leave. Again, I do think she feels guilty and pressure because of the soul but I can't discount her personal feelings being a big part of the equation as it was with Angel. I dislike the season more for putting Buffy in that position than me thinking Spike is manipulative and obsessed (although sometimes he WAS manipulative).

Giles even points out the fact that she and Spike had had a sexual relationship means her judgement is clouded. Buffy hasn't had time to process and recover from all of her trauma from s6.

It's sad that Buffy refers to herself as a monster, when she was merely dealing with PTSD and depression. She used Spike to feel - considering her circumstances and state of mind, I don't think she behaved like a monster. The poor girl was drowning, I give her some grace.

Making her out to be the villain of the piece with her s6 'relationship' with Spike - why is the blame on her?

 

[quillandfang]

I don't think "Spike" being her last line necessarily has any particular importance. I think the open-endedness of what she didn't say in the final scene (as someone said, "the smile") is really what we're supposed to take away from the last time we see Buffy. I interpret it as a weight being lifted from her shoulders-- she is still a Slayer, but as far as she knows, the worst is over and she can share that burden.

However, I don't think that means Spike has little importance, or that Buffy didn't care about his sacrifice. The ending was just a bit rushed and the show didn't have time to sit with that.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Seriously, Spuffy gnostic cabala is a thing? No, I don't believe a secret message was implanted in the script to demonstrate the writers intended to declare their loyalty to Team Spike, and all that stuff about Angel hoping to regain his humanity and walk away with Buffy into a sunrise, nah. Buffy's best self is being railed in public. Yeah, not buying it.

Appreciate your ship for what it is, but don't try to make it something it's not.

P.S. My preferred Spike ending is that he dies, but the goodness within him gets reborn as a human. I would prefer that to be alongside Drusilla as his soulmate, but that would have required additional character building to emphasize their link, and the suffering inflicted upon mortal souls trapped by undeath. This isn't a ship per se, just a desire to see every character get a happy ending, including Drusilla and Spike.

 

[Btvs fan]

It should be pointed out that Spike doesn't go back to Buffy after he's brought back on Angel but stays and helps Angel

 

[NotASlayer]

It should be pointed out that Spike doesn't go back to Buffy after he's brought back on Angel but stays and helps Angel

And that Buffy doesn't seek Spike out either after knowing he's back.

 

[hoponlilmama]

It should be pointed out that Spike doesn't go back to Buffy after he's brought back on Angel but stays and helps Angel

Real answer - James is contracted for all of s5 on AtS. 😉

In-universe answer - when you break it down and think about it, that story was at its end. Where do you go from there? The woman he apparently cared about lied about loving him ("No you don't, but thanks for saying it"), and he went up in flames. Pursue Buffy for what? To force her into loving him?

He's got a soul now, can really make a difference, and he's got people he actually interacts with, has become friendly with. Away from his obsession, Spike can grow and move on.

And as NAS pointed out - Buffy doesn't seek him out, essentially proving she didn't love him.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And as NAS pointed out - Buffy doesn't seek him out, essentially proving she didn't love him.

I have my own reasons why I think Spike didn't tell Buffy he was alive, and Buffy not seeking him out in no way proves she didn't love him. 😉

 

[NotASlayer]

I have my own reasons why I think Spike didn't tell Buffy he was alive, and Buffy not seeking him out in no way proves she didn't love him. 😉

The problem is that literally dozens of people that Buffy interacts with knew Spike was alive, would have no reason to keep this secret and, in two cases - Harmony and Andrew - I wouldn't trust to keep it a secret anyway. Admittedly, in Andrew's case, it's more "wouldn't trust" full stop. There is no way that Buffy wouldn't have known.

 

[Mr Trick]

Pretty sure he's not her last line. Surely she says something else as their looking over the hell mouth?

On a different note the very final line of the show is perfect as is the visual of the group standing over the hellmouth. Another reason S7 is underrated.

 

[NoShip]

Pursue Buffy for what? To force her into loving him?

It's not like Spike hadn't done that before.....

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I think Spike decided that Buffy was more trouble than she was worth, and decided to break his obsession with her, and move on. That doesn't really work, but he was going to make a good effort of it.

 

[XanderesqueMan]

Just my two cents,

Take a whole dollar, Pix, 'cause you made some good points.

I think there's a lot of difference shown between Angel/Angelus than from Spike/Spike. Season 7 Spike was too much like season 5 Spike to me rather than a different being. Had they SHOWN the change more then I'd buy it more.

I agree that Angel and Angelus are entirely different people, not just one slightly meaner than the other, and in fact, Angel is three people throughout his existence. Liam, then Angelus (who has a twisted version of Liam's carefree nature but remains a distinct person), and finally Angel, who is a version of Liam forced to live with the guilt of Angelus' actions performed with his body, making him entirely different from either of the other two. In fact, even Angel goes through phases of significant behavioral changes throughout the time we know him, from his first appearance in "Welcome to the Hellouth," to his leaving in "Graduation Day," to his darkness in season two of Angel, to his loss of hope and finally his regaining of purpose (not for a reward but for the benefit of the world around him) in season five.

While Spike and William are driven by the same primary motivators (love, family), they have distinct personality differences. Spike does soften, at least in regards to Buffy and Dawn, but this happens before he's gained his soul, and does not fundamentally change who he is.

The man who confesses to Buffy in "Touched" is not drastically different from the man who tried to educate Buffy in "Fool for Love," who is not drastically different from the man who kidnapped Willow and Xander in "Lover's Walk" (a personal favorite of mine.) I think the thing about Spike is that he doesn't really change as a person (drives, wants, psychology), only in the way that he expresses that personhood, and much more subtly than with Liam/Angelus/Angel. For him, it has always been about the woman he loves, and doing what he does for her and because of her, whether that be Cecily, Drusilla, or Buffy.

I'm not necessarily even criticizing this. I love Spike as a character. Several of my favorite Buffy episodes are Spike-centric ("School Hard," "Lover's Walk," "Fool for Love," etc.) Some people, in the real world as much as in fiction, just don't change that much over time. In fact, a lot of people don't. I'm not saying it's inherently bad character writing. But I can see it impacting how one feels about Buffy and Spike's relationship.

For example, if Spike gave his coat to Robin and showed remorse, saying it was no longer him, then I'd have seen him different (he could even still threaten Robin if he tried to kill him again, once he gave up the jacket).

I think this could have been a really nice moment for Spike and for Robin, both individually and for their interaction. It would have shown Spike doing something for someone to show a desire for atonement in a way that was not in any way related to himself. His changing for Buffy is nice, as a concept, but it's because he loves her, not because it's right. And it isn't about making up for the past, only about changing the future.

And I think Spike is the one character of the redemptive arc type in Buffy and Angel who doesn't really engage like that. Part of what makes Faith and Angel's arcs so compelling is the way they go about attempting to make up for what they did, despite knowing that they never can. Honestly, I would have loved to see more of Faith and Angel, as well as Faith and Wesley. There was so much in both relationships to work with.

Further, this would have made Robin question himself in a way he really isn't forced to.

Post automatically merged: Aug 27, 2026

If Angel was so good for her, why did he leave town?

Someone leaving doesn't mean that they aren't good for you. It only means they believe that, whether true or not, your life could be better without them. He was being noble, denying himself happiness in order to give her as close to a normal life as possible. Which she did not end up having, through no fault of his.

He abused the snot out of her on a regular basis as Angelus. It's not to say she and Spike were super

Angelus is not Angel. They might share a body, but they do not share personhood. Angelus does not get credit for the times Angel helped people, and Angel does not get the blame for the times Angelus hurt people. That's just silly.

What did Angel sacrifice?

His happiness. His potential for a future that wasn't just about fighting evil. Someone to come home to.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Well there had to be a last word, it is a shame that no one mentioned the manufacturer of the school bus or who it could have been as that might have given us audience something to rant over and over about. It might be said we could relate the difference to be similar to the difference of opinion as the Astronaut and the Caveman, which, as far as I am concerned could do with being ' argued ' about some more.

 

[XanderesqueMan]

Well there had to be a last word, it is a shame that no one mentioned the manufacturer of the school bus or who it could have been as that might have given us audience something to rant over and over about. It might be said we could relate the difference to be similar to the difference of opinion as the Astronaut and the Caveman, which, as far as I am concerned could do with being ' argued ' about some more.

Well, the caveman's advantages would be strength, durability, and brutality. The astronaut's advantages would be agility, combat training (Air Force), and intelligence.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Hell;

1. Most of the potentials didn't make it. The ones who did survive, were basically ignored by the main cast. Which is fine, but if you have the extra time, slipping in something to commemorate the woman whom Buffy was charged with the protection of, would have been nice.
2. Willow seemed really convinced that dying in a hell dimension would result in your soul being trapped in a hell dimension for all time. Is that still a possibility? Again, not needed, but something that could have been added.

 

[Last Watcher]

As some of you will already know, I'm not a Spuffling or a Bangalite, as I really don't like the idea of any Slayer/Vampire pairing.

So from my point of view, I'm not really surprised Buffy's final word was Spike, as it had pretty much become his show by then & Buffy was almost reduced to 'Love interest'.
They spent most of season 6 pushing Spike, then really got going in season 7 making everything about him & his redemption while totally destroying all of the Scooby's character built up over the series, even Buffy. Reducing them to bit players there to show how wonderful Spike was.
By the end of s7 it was not so much Buffy as 'Spike the Slayer Layer show'.
So whatever you read into her reaction, you've got to put it into the context of the 'Wasn't Spike wonderful' direction the show had taken.
Now I'm not saying James isn't a great actor, but given the amount of story-arc & screentime he got it's not really surprising he made the most of it.

I really think most of this was the Studio plus fan service as once he played the big hero in Buffy's last ep, he moved over to Angel & pretty much took that over too.
(I can't find the article now, but I read somewhere that one of the reasons Eliza didn't take up the offer of a Faith spinoff was because the studio wanted Spike to be joint lead with her, so making him the focus again. Can't say if this was true or not as I can't remember the origin of the article, but again it wouldn't surprise me!)

I know I'm going to ruffle a few feathers with this, but as I said, I'm not a fan of either Vampire with Buffy, so being critical of Spike does not make me a fan of Captain Broody by default.

Fuse lit, awaits fireworks 😀

As an aside, I've had at least four goes at rewriting/reimagining the lead-up & final battle in s7 and not one of them features Spike or Angel 😉

 

[XanderesqueMan]

As some of you will already know, I'm not a Spuffling or a Bangalite, as I really don't like the idea of any Slayer/Vampire pairing.

I wouldn't consider myself a shipper of either relationship, but I prefer her relationship with Angel. That doesn't mean I necessarily think that they belong together. It means I think they have a better relationship and I can appreciate the way they feel about each other. The truth is, their unique identities have given them the burden of belonging to the world, so they can never belong to each other in the way they want to. "With great power," and all that.

Much like I can appreciate Batman and Catwoman's feelings for each other, or Spider-Man and Black Cat's feelings for each other (Felicia is a bad choice I would love to make), without thinking that they should actually be together, I feel the same about Angel and her.

I know I'm going to ruffle a few feathers with this, but as I said, I'm not a fan of either Vampire with Buffy, so being critical of Spike does not make me a fan of Captain Broody by default.

I am featherless and, thus, have not been ruffled. Though now I'm thinking about potato chips for some reason. 😛

Fuse lit, awaits fireworks 😀

I'm just going to be over here, behind this here cover, practicing "putting down my gun to eat beans and get my throat slit."

As an aside, I've had at least four goes at rewriting/reimagining the lead-up & final battle in s7 and not one of them features Spike or Angel 😉

As a writer myself (though not a published one), I'm curious what it was you came up with. If you feel like sharing, that is.

 

[merzki]

Except that Angel is dumped back in Sunnydale by forces beyond his control, his is weak and not in a right state of mind.

Doesn't the same apply to Spike being crazy in the basement?

and eventually ends up walking into Buffy's house and demanding that they work together.

He doesn't demand it:

SPIKE I was hoping you'd tell me. You're the slayer. (Buffy crosses her arms over her chest.) Connected to the visions. Long line of worthies, right? I'm just a guy with his ear to the ground, and even I can feel it. Something's coming. I don't know what exactly, but something's brewing. And it's so big, ugly and damned it makes you and me look like little bitty puzzle pieces. I mean, if I'm wrong, say so. Lovely. No hard feelings. I'll go out that door and you can lock it behind me with any spell you like. So, am I wrong?

He offers to help because he feels something is coming, which it is, and because is the closest to trying to make up for his act, and says she can shut him out of her life forever if she doesn't want it. I don't like his cavalier attitude (and I don't like her accepting it), especially hiding that he has a soul, but again, I give him a little bit of a pass because he was going back and forth between a hallucinating mess because of The First, or just unwell and suicidal (wanting Buffy to kill him) after just getting a soul.

It's sad that Buffy refers to herself as a monster, when she was merely dealing with PTSD and depression.

Agreed. But the show pretty much expects us to judge it as a mutually toxic relationship.

The problem is that literally dozens of people that Buffy interacts with knew Spike was alive, would have no reason to keep this secret and, in two cases - Harmony and Andrew - I wouldn't trust to keep it a secret anyway. Admittedly, in Andrew's case, it's more "wouldn't trust" full stop. There is no way that Buffy wouldn't have known.

Since when does Harmony and Buffy talk?

I guess we are supposed to think Andrew wouldn't tell her because he is trying to be better and he does have a soft spot for Spike.

Angel Season 5 doesn't seem to care about Buffy's side of things, unless it is to have a narrative impact on as it was the case of her not trusting Angel in Damage. I don't think the writers were going for "she knew and didn't care".

 

[NotASlayer]

Since when does Harmony and Buffy talk?

I guess we are supposed to think Andrew wouldn't tell her because he is trying to be better and he does have a soft spot for Spike.

Buffy doesn't have to talk to Harmony directly; gossip gets passed around.

For Buffy not to know would require Andrew not to tell, for no real reason, and for him to convince every single Slayer present who was there not to tell anyone else (and do so before they have had a chance to pass it on, so immediately), for no real reason, and why would they listen, and again, gossip gets passed around, and for him to convince anyone who knows at W&H to not pass it on to Buffy's lot, again for no real reason and no reason for them to obey. Dozens upon dozens of people who know who have to not mention it to anyone else, or if they do, for those not to pass it on, all of whom have to agree with this. With no reason for them to do so.

For Buffy to know requires one person who knows, directly or indirectly, to mention it. One. That's all. Not the dozens needed to keep it secret.