Was Cordelia really traumatised by Angel's actions?

[MarieVampSlayer]

Hi all!

So this always annoyed me because it doesn't make sense to me and I wanted to have your opinion. When Lorne brings back Cordy's meomory in Spin the bottle she says she can't be with Angel because she has seen his evil doing and is traumatised by it. So to me this is just a plot device to keep Cangel apart because I fell it is OCC for Cordy to feel that way. However, we know that Cordy was possessed by Jasmine at the time so was that just a way for Jasmine to keep Angel away?

What do you think?

 

[GraceK]

She wasn’t traumatized at all. She wasn’t even herself, she was Jasmine. She said that purely to make Angel feel like crap and to have an excuse to sleep with his son later.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Yup wasn’t Cordy.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It was Cordy but it wasn't really what she was thinking. She was feeling guilt.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

It was Cordy but it wasn't really what she was thinking. She was feeling guilt.

What do you mean it was Cordy? When in your mind did it stop being Cordy?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What do you mean it was Cordy? When in your mind did it stop being Cordy?

I don't think it ever stopped being Cordy. I have never been a fan of that theory. I think she was being influenced by Jasmine and her 'soul' but I still think it was Cordy.

edit: well, after she gave birth I think she stopped being Cordy then.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I don't think it ever stopped being Cordy. I have never been a fan of that theory. I think she was being influenced by Jasmine and her 'soul' but I still think it was Cordy.

edit: well, after she gave birth I think she stopped being Cordy then.

Hmm interesting theory. So you think that Cordy herself had some agency in this Jasmine debacle? What evidence do you see for that? I’m really not arguing btw I want to know your view on it because I have a hard time with this story line myself.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Hmm interesting theory. So you think that Cordy herself had some agency in this Jasmine debacle? What evidence do you see for that? I’m really not arguing btw I want to know your view on it because I have a hard time with this story line myself.

Because Jasmine was a "higher power" up until then everyone thought the higher powers were inherently good. Jasmine wanted to bring about world peace. Angel stood in the way of her bringing about world peace. Cordy ran away because he was ashamed at what she would have to do for the benevolent, higher power that was going to bring about peace and happiness.

How many 'sane' and 'normal' people have been swayed by cult leaders and have done things far more horrible than having sex with you best friends child? Cordy was lead to believe one thing and she acted on those beliefs.

If you believed in a higher power, one that, for many years shaped your life and you fought for even against great suffering... if that higher power said that you could help them achieve world peace by doing a few little things for them, I think most people would listen. Especially if they were cut off from the modern world and had only that higher power talking to them and twisting their views.

Cordy so wanted to fight the good fight that she was duped into working with evil. That is why Cordy had to be the one to 'save' Angel from making the same mistake in the following season.

edit: Furthermore. How many years passed when Buffy sent Angel to the hell dimension? It's quite probably the heaven dimension that Cordy was at suffered the same time difference. She could have been there for hundreds of years.

 

[GraceK]

Because Jasmine was a "higher power" up until then everyone thought the higher powers were inherently good. Jasmine wanted to bring about world peace. Angel stood in the way of her bringing about world peace. Cordy ran away because he was ashamed at what she would have to do for the benevolent, higher power that was going to bring about peace and happiness.

How many 'sane' and 'normal' people have been swayed by cult leaders and have done things far more horrible than having sex with you best friends child? Cordy was lead to believe one thing and she acted on those beliefs.

If you believed in a higher power, one that, for many years shaped your life and you fought for even against great suffering... if that higher power said that you could help them achieve world peace by doing a few little things for them, I think most people would listen. Especially if they were cut off from the modern world and had only that higher power talking to them and twisting their views.

Cordy so wanted to fight the good fight that she was duped into working with evil. That is why Cordy had to be the one to 'save' Angel from making the same mistake in the following season.

edit: Furthermore. How many years passed when Buffy sent Angel to the hell dimension? It's quite probably the heaven dimension that Cordy was at suffered the same time difference. She could have been there for hundreds of years.

I really like this theory actually. If this was the case though, I wish we would have seen some type of remorse or acknowledgement in season 5 from her.
 
@Mr. Pole I don’t think Cordy was up there for hundreds of years. It’s very possible of course, but I got the impression she was watching over the gang in real time, which is how she was able to help Angel in the Vegas episode

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don’t think Cordy was up there for hundreds of years. It’s very possible of course, but I got the impression she was watching over the gang in real time, which is how she was able to help Angel in the Vegas episode

But time moves differently. Remember the Oracles and how they used time? They treated it almost as though they could see everything at once.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

Because Jasmine was a "higher power" up until then everyone thought the higher powers were inherently good. Jasmine wanted to bring about world peace. Angel stood in the way of her bringing about world peace. Cordy ran away because he was ashamed at what she would have to do for the benevolent, higher power that was going to bring about peace and happiness.

How many 'sane' and 'normal' people have been swayed by cult leaders and have done things far more horrible than having sex with you best friends child? Cordy was lead to believe one thing and she acted on those beliefs.

If you believed in a higher power, one that, for many years shaped your life and you fought for even against great suffering... if that higher power said that you could help them achieve world peace by doing a few little things for them, I think most people would listen. Especially if they were cut off from the modern world and had only that higher power talking to them and twisting their views.

Cordy so wanted to fight the good fight that she was duped into working with evil. That is why Cordy had to be the one to 'save' Angel from making the same mistake in the following season.

edit: Furthermore. How many years passed when Buffy sent Angel to the hell dimension? It's quite probably the heaven dimension that Cordy was at suffered the same time difference. She could have been there for hundreds of years.

I don't think that was Joss intend with the story but it would have added much needed depth to EvilCordy. Oh how this story could have been better!!!

 

[Stanger406]

I always felt that some part of Cordy was still in control until Spin the Bottle, and then it was Jasmine in full control. After her coma if she had been in control in anyway, she wouldn't have been ok with killing thousands of people, and would have been a whole new character in You're Welcome. She also states she wasn't in control:

CORDELIA
(chuckles)
Wes?
(stands, walks up to Wesley)
Last year, when that, um, higher...whatever took over my body, did those things. Nobody's talking about it.
(smiles nervously, looks at Wesley, concerned)

I do find your theory very interesting though, Mr. Pole!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

CORDELIA
(chuckles)
Wes?
(stands, walks up to Wesley)
Last year, when that, um, higher...whatever took over my body, did those things. Nobody's talking about it.
(smiles nervously, looks at Wesley, concerned)

But that wasn't Cordy speaking. That was the Powers That Be telling everyone what they wanted/needed to hear. Just like it wasn't Darla that visited Connor to try to talk sense into him. Cordy was already dead and gone. She died before they even saw "her" in the hospital.
 
@dcai0830 " I’m having a lot of thoughts about this now.."
You're welcome

 

[thetopher]

It wasn't Cordy, it was Jasmine using Cordy's personality. Jasdelia's actions towards Angel were just to manipulate his emotions regarding her; let to alienating him from his son for a time, bringing forth Angelus, missing the clues behind the actual scheme to bring Jasmine about, etc.

How many 'sane' and 'normal' people have been swayed by cult leaders and have done things far more horrible than having sex with you best friends child? Cordy was lead to believe one thing and she acted on those beliefs.

But 'Cordelia' did a lot worse than that. She unleashed the Beast- who killed hundreds- she killed Manjet with an axe, slaughter those sisterhood priestess people when she found out about them.
In my opinion Cordelia wouldn't do any of those things, no matter what 'influence' she was under. Also 'You're Welcome' implies that S4 Cordelia wasn't Cordelia either, at least according to Wes and co.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

She unleashed the Beast- who killed hundreds

That was just a means to an end. If you could sacrifice a few hundred to save billions of people it would be worth it. Buffy's actions in Chosen taught as that.

- she killed Manjet with an axe, slaughter those sisterhood priestess people when she found out about them.

They were forces of darkness or in some way working with said forces if memory serves. They weren't really "good" guys, were they?

 

[thetopher]

That was just a means to an end.

That's Jasmine's thinking but it's never been Cordelia's. When has Cordelia ever voiced the 'ends justified the means' mentality? That sounds more like Wes than anyone. Cordelia was always more clear-sighted in some ways.

They were forces of darkness or in some way working with said forces if memory serves.

Manjet was definitly neautral I think, given what he symbolises- 'the potential of man', but the witches were straight up good guys who banished The Beast years before.
I have a fan theory that they also banished Olaf the Troll after he was cursed by Aud.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That's Jasmine's thinking but it's never been Cordelia's.

At least not when she was a human while she was on earth. Spending who knows how long on the other plain as a higher power who knows what she really thinks. You know those higher power types looked at everything differently.

 

[Stanger406]

But that wasn't Cordy speaking. That was the Powers That Be telling everyone what they wanted/needed to hear. Just like it wasn't Darla that visited Connor to try to talk sense into him. Cordy was already dead and gone. She died before they even saw "her" in the hospital.

Why do you believe that wasn't Cordy? I'm curious, because I've never heard that opinion before. Yes, Cordy's body was in the hospital, but I don't believe she died until around the time that Angel got the call. The Power gave her the means to temporarily have another body or allow her soul to corporealize (sp?). That's how I've always interpreted it.

Darla I believe could be argued to be Darla or another entity. I've certainly heard the theory it could be The First trying to stop Jasmine from raining on its apocalypse. Darla could also be other Powers, or somehow the piece of Connor's soul he shared while inside her. It's possible it was Darla, but that would also be very complicated. I'm getting off topic from Cordy now though.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why do you believe that wasn't Cordy?

I answered some of that already. But when you take what happened at the hospital. Why they got the call in the first place. It makes perfect sense.

Wes got the call from the hospital about Cordy (which were calling to say she died) so they went down to check on her. She's standing in front of the 'one foot in the grave' person and when she turns to Angel he instantly questions whether it's really her or not. Instinctively Angel does not believe it's really Cordy. It's only her reassuring and his desire TO believe it's her that allows him to go along with it.

It's only when they leave the hospital- in the administrators view never having shown up when requested in the first place- that they tell them at the end of the day the reason why they were needing to come down.

 

[Stanger406]

Interesting. I've never viewed it that way, but I'll have to give it another watch with that in mind.