Warren shouldn't be hated as much as he is

[DeadlyDuo]

It's a pretty controversial opinion, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't dislike Warren, but what has he actually done that the scoobies or Faith haven't?

He attempted to rape Katrina- That's bad, however Spike attempted to rape Buffy, Faith attempted to rape Xander as she was strangling him, Hyena Xander attempted "felony sexual assault" against Buffy, Faith DID rape Riley and by extension Buffy. Angel/Angelus has raped in the past and their is debate over whether Spike raped in the past.

He mind controlled Katrina- Xander did the love spell in Season 2 which made the entre female population of Sunnydale fall in love with him, Willow even offered him her virginity. Willow also messed with her friends minds in Tabula Rasa.

He has a "misogynistic" view of women- How is it any different to Faith's "use them then lose them" view of men? She took Xander's virginity then tossed him aside even though he thought they had a connection. He was nothing but a toy to her and she threw him away when she got what se wanted.

He killed Tara- Angel/Angelus killed Jenny, Spike attempted to kill Buffy on several occasions, and Willow attempted to destroy the entire world.

He came up with schemes that got people hurt or killed- Anya was a vengeance demon who took pleasure in making men suffer and her actions have led to death. As a human she still looked upon those days fondly. After Xander jilted her on their wedding day, she went back to being a vengeance demon and released those spider demons which killed those guys. She felt bad and wanted it taken back which ended up with Halfrek being killed.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't dislike Warren because of his actions, however he seems to get an awful lot of hate for stuff that the scoobies and Faith have done too. Why such a double standard? Why is he often considered a hated character yet Faith, Willow and Anya aren't despite their actions?

Thoughts?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He killed Tara

I would add inadvertently. The other murderous actions you mention and compare him to did so with intent and purpose. His killing of Tara was merely accidental.

He mind controlled Katrina

Also the monks altered the thoughts and memories of an entire city and very few times that's ever mentioned as being immoral.

He attempted to rape Katrina

Not that it makes it any better but he least he and she were in a relationship when that happened as compared to some of the other examples.

He has a "misogynistic" view of women

I'm not sure that's accurate. I would say some women, there is nothing (to my knowledge) showing that he held misogynistic views of all women. He also had a low opinion of his cronies so I am not sure if he had misogynistic views or more akin to misanthropic.

 

[TriBel]

Why is he often considered a hated character yet Faith, Willow and Anya aren't despite their actions?

I think you'd have to dismiss the vampires on account of the soul/no soul malarkey. I think it's probably because a) he has no regrets and b) story-wise, there's no redemption. Personally, I'm not big on free will and tend not to blame individuals for their actions (I'm not big on redemption either) - I see their flaws as a manifestation of society's flaws and it's ridiculously easy to read this into BtVS. However, with Warren there's not enough backstory to hang the logic on.

Look at the flaying...his "surface" is removed but his structure remains the same. Real psycho-social change only happens if you change structure. What you see with Warren is (more or less) what you get.

I am not sure if he had misogynistic views or more akin to misanthropic.

I'd argue the latter (I think).

Also the monks altered the thoughts and memories of an entire city and very few times that's ever mentioned as being immoral.

See...there are parallels with that. One could argue it happens all the time. Institutions change cultural memory, the unconscious changes individual memory - at the same time there's an overlap.

I'd say Warren is an incredibly complex "flat" character.

 

[Priceless]

As has been mentioned, it's the lack of remorse that bothers me. Warren was proud of what he did and made no effort to change.

 

[Bop]

It's the fact that Warren does all those things and has no redeemable moments or qualities whatsoever. He's not even interesting while he does all those things that instantly make him unlikable. I don't think liking characters is about a tally of how much wrong they've done. I believe it's all about execution and the story. To me, Warren is just a nerd who turned into a misogynist and that's really all there is to him.

Objectively Angelus is worse but did we get anything the level of Passion out of Warren? No, never. IMO Warren never produced any art in this show. So Warren is usefless on both the level of being an evil person and also a character that just isn't entertaining to watch. And if a character is going to be evil and still enjoyable to watch they have to be good on multiple levels. I think this is why we never see Warren fans anyway.

 

[r2dh2]

It's a pretty controversial opinion, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't dislike Warren, but what has he actually done that the scoobies or Faith haven't?

He wasn’t presented as a sympathetic character but more a uni-dimensional women hater. There’s no backstory or another side of him to connect with, we’re only shown the bad and the worst plus there’s no regret or remorse in his actions:

He attempted to rape Katrina- That's bad, however Spike attempted to rape Buffy,

Spike went to get a soul to atone for this.

Faith attempted to rape Xander as she was strangling him,

Did she? I thought that she *only* wanted to kill him.

Hyena Xander attempted "felony sexual assault" against Buffy,

Xander was possessed. In BBB, he had a chance with Buffy and he didn’t do it.

Faith DID rape Riley and by extension Buffy.

Followed by freaking out after Riley told her that he loved her and followed by the scene of her beating herself and calling herself disgusting.

Angel/Angelus has raped in the past and their is debate over whether Spike raped in the past.

Soulless demons.

He mind controlled Katrina-

In order to rape her.

Xander did the love spell in Season 2 which made the entre female population of Sunnydale fall in love with him, Willow even offered him her virginity.

As a misguided attempt to minimize his pain after the very humiliating break-up. And he rejected Willow and Buffy.

Willow also messed with her friends minds in Tabula Rasa.

Wanting to make everything better for everyone (included herself). Was shun after the spell broke and Tara left her. We're shown her pain and remorse.

He has a "misogynistic" view of women- How is it any different to Faith's "use them then lose them" view of men? She took Xander's virginity then tossed him aside even though he thought they had a connection. He was nothing but a toy to her and she threw him away when she got what se wanted.

There’s a scene where it is shown that Faith has been sexually abused in the past and her behavior towards men starts to make sense:

“Angel: No, I just wanna talk to you.
Faith: That's what they all say. And then it's just, 'Lemme stay the night. Won't try anything.' “

He killed Tara- Angel/Angelus killed Jenny,

Soulless

Spike attempted to kill Buffy on several occasions,

Soulless

and Willow attempted to destroy the entire world.

Grieving, broke down crying, felt shame and remorse afterwards.

He came up with schemes that got people hurt or killed- Anya was a vengeance demon who took pleasure in making men suffer and her actions have led to death. As a human she still looked upon those days fondly. After Xander jilted her on their wedding day, she went back to being a vengeance demon and released those spider demons which killed those guys. She felt bad and wanted it taken back which ended up with Halfrek being killed.

Anya shows remorse and change in Selfless.

 

[TriBel]

Warren was proud of what he did

Agree...but why? What does it mean to be proud? Spike's proud he didn't feed on the victims...I get that. Willow's proud of the fact she resurrected Buffy - I get that too. Usually when we're proud it's because we want to impress someone - even if that someone isn't there and we've internalised the gaze. We're pleased with ourselves because we imagine another would be pleased (the other/the mother) With Warren...I got nothing. Is he trying to impress Jonathon and Andrew? I doubt it because he makes it clear their opinion counts for nothing. I think it's something to do with a gaze...he has cameras that point outward but he's hidden. Look at Buffy in Gone...she does exactly what she wants to do because she can't be seen.

I've just checked on the meaning of his name and one definition is "watchman" - which I hope is true because I'd argue Warren wants to be looked at but not watched (ie. he wants to control the gaze...which is what Buffy tries to do with the social worker and the bank manager but fails. It's what she succeeds in doing in Showtime). Warren takes pleasure in looking. The other meaning is park warden (which I could work with). Meh...I've probably got more than I thought I had! 😄 Warren's meta... scopophillia...the male gaze.

@Spanky - and I'm gonna ignore it cos that's all I got without thinking. 😄

 

[Priceless]

When he shoots Tara and Buffy he goes to nearest demon bar and brags about what he's done, that he's killed the Slayer. He's now a big man, he's achieved the ultimate, something none of the other demons could do. There is a sense of inner pride that comes from achieving your goals and he did set himself (and the other two) to take over Sunnydale, and he believes that's what he's finally done.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He's now a big man, he's achieved the ultimate, something none of the other demons could do.

He can finally have respect. Something he never had before. I'm sure there were parts and a time when Willow could certainly relate and wonder had she not have had the support group she had would she have went down a similar dark path. Maybe she was especially brutal to Warren because she recognized herself in him.

 

[Priceless]

He can finally have respect. Something he never had before. I'm sure there were parts and a time when Willow could certainly relate and wonder had she not have had the support group she had would she have went down a similar dark path. Maybe she was especially brutal to Warren because she recognized herself in him.

Maybe, but Willow didn't turn dark to gain respect, she wanted revenge.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Maybe, but Willow didn't turn dark to gain respect, she wanted revenge.

I wasn't talking about her turning immorally grey, I was talking about early on when she showed dark tendencies and destructive behavior towards others.

 

[WillowsFaith]

The major problem with Warren is that he cared. Faith killed and showed remorse then didn’t care because of irresponsibility and teen rebellion. Warren accepted that he was bad and continued to be a douche for the remainder of his story arc. The only time he felt bad was when Willow was torturing him. Spike, Angel, Xander, etc. all had faults but they are redeem. Warren never wanted redemption because he only cares about himself and his own motives. The other 2/3rds of the trio also committed crimes by association but they were aware of their morals and admitted to thier sins. Warren never hesitated or felt he was in the wrong.

 

[TriBel]

When he shoots Tara and Buffy he goes to nearest demon bar and brags about what he's done, that he's killed the Slayer. He's now a big man, he's achieved the ultimate, something none of the other demons could do. There is a sense of inner pride that comes from achieving your goals and he did set himself (and the other two) to take over Sunnydale, and he believes that's what he's finally done.

Yeah...I was thinking of that scene. He walks into a bar and demands the attention of a vampire who says "I'm watching my program". Warren eventually get the attention of all (the description says they "look" over). He's finally being seen as he wants to be seen - he wants their approval...which is kind of a confirmation he's a "big man". If I slip into theory mode there's a comparison here with the child who wants the approval of his mother - it comes to him in what's called "the mother's smile" but instead of the smile he gets derisory laughter - what the vamp calls "the evil laugh of "you're a dead man."." Yeah...I can work with that.

@Priceless Didn't we once discuss an article where Noxon's talking about BtVS and the Gaze?

 

[Priceless]

I wasn't talking about her turning immorally grey, I was talking about early on when she showed dark tendencies and destructive behavior towards others.

I'm not sure when you mean? I don't think she wanted to cast an anti-love spell on Xander to gain respect , or memory wiped Tara or do the 'my will be done' spell for respect. I think it was more that she saw magic as the easy option and slowly the easy option became second nature. Warren wanted the 'take over Sunnydale' whereas Willow just wanted an easy life and things to go her way.

 

[thrasherpix]

A lot of these were intent. For example, Xander didn't intend for everyone to fall in love with him, and refused to take advantage of it to rape anyone, even Buffy who he craved (which is one of the bigger reasons why he's not a Nice Guy TM in my book at all). Hyena Xander also doesn't count.

That's just an example.



That aside, I was starting a fanfic before I stopped for reasons...but in it, I merged Buffy season 6 with Angel season 3 (late in both), and one of the arcs I was going to go with is Wolfram & Hart recruiting both Warren and Willow (separately) and making a damn good case (but it's not intended to be true, just manipulative, using the truth when they can, twisting it when inconvenient, and outright lying otherwise) that Willow and Warren were mirrors of each other in an attempt to make them competitive, and to corrupt Willow. There was just enough truth that Willow couldn't dismiss it out of hand...and damn, how she lets Angel and Wes have it when they try to talk her down given their own histories.

(So far I've changed my mind on doing it. I haven't done a fanfic is like 10 years. I'm actually thinking of deleting all my fics that I can and just putting it all behind me.)

 

[TriBel]

I'm not sure when you mean? I don't think she wanted to cast an anti-love spell on Xander to gain respect

I'm not so sure...if not respect, I think it was partly to do with changing the way people saw her. Isn't she surprised when Giles doesn't praise her for resurrecting Buffy? I certainly think there's part of Willow that wants to be told she's a "good girl"...just as Warren wants to be a "good boy" (probably something to do with her daft mother). I can read her turning into Warren as a self-actualization of sorts.

 

[Priceless]

I'm not so sure...if not respect, I think it was partly to do with changing the way people saw her. Isn't she surprised when Giles doesn't praise her for resurrecting Buffy? I certainly think there's part of Willow that wants to be told she's a "good girl"...just as Warren wants to be a "good boy" (probably something to do with her daft mother). I can read her turning into Warren as a self-actualization.

By Season 6 we have a different Willow, one who sees the power magic gives her and is enjoying it. It's not the same as Season 3 Willow who uses magic to solve problems. And of course Willow does turn into Warren, so it would seem they are very much connected. But I don't think respect is exactly what Willow is after. Maybe it's love.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Willow just wanted an easy life and things to go her way.

That's a slippery slope. Warren wanted an easy life and things to go his way too. I was thinking of the Delivery remark, her breaking into government records and the other little sly vindictive things she said or did prior to becoming someone of importance, ie, a "powerful" witch. In my mind, she was certainly on the path to becoming Warren, were it not for her friends and her innate magical abilities.

 

[Priceless]

That's a slippery slope. Warren wanted an easy life and things to go his way too. I was thinking of the Delivery remark, her breaking into government records and the other little sly vindictive things she said or did prior to becoming someone of importance, ie, a "powerful" witch. In my mind, she was certainly on the path to becoming Warren, were it not for her friends and her innate magical abilities.

You could be right, but when she turned into Warren she did so out of guilt. That was something Warren never felt and I think that's what finally separates them. I do agree wanting an easy life is a slippery slope, but Willow came back from that and Warren never did.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That was something Warren never felt

I disagree with that too. I think there were instances on the show where it was shown Warren did feel guilt. He felt guilt over April, which is why he ran away from her. He felt guilt initially when he accidentally killed Katrina. I'm sure there were more but that's the only two on the top of my head that I can remember from a decade or so ago.