Spike's reaction to Buffy's resurrection

[GwenRaiden]

You seriously didn''t get the connection between Forever and later on? It's a logical course of events and one of the main reasons why Spike feels so much guilt. He helped Dawn play with dangerous forces and their were 'consequences'

Ehhhhhhh, I didn't think that at all, either.

 

[sosa lola]

I think he wouldn't want to do it, he wouldn't want them to do it

I think he would. He was clearly upset because they didn't tell him about bringing Buffy back. He thought he was one of the Scoobies and was deeply hurt to realize they didn't think of him as one of them. He'd talk about Willow not including him because if Buffy came back as a Zombie and Willow tried to get rid of her, he wouldn't let her. He'll keep Zombie Buffy alive. He said nothing about stopping them from doing it.

SPIKE: You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me.
XANDER: Well, now you know.
SPIKE: I worked beside you all summer.
XANDER: We didn't tell you. It was just ... we didn't, okay?

SPIKE: Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.

 

[thetopher]

So, Doc worshiped Glorificus, and he knew (since Forever) that Dawn was the Key - but he didn't bother to tell Glory, who kept looking and making a fool out of herself, torturing a vampire for nothing.

Glory found out two episodes later. It's not inconcievable that Doc found out seperately. He didn't know where his Goddess lived, we never see them together so how would he find her to tell her.

He worshiped Glory and was doing his job.

No, his job was some sort of underworld dealer. His religion was separate from that. He had a job that wasn't being a scabby minion- he was an established Hellmouth character than Spike knew of. Most likely he'd been there for some time, i.e before Glory came.

Are you saying that the whole Glory-Key-sacrifice in the tower thing happened because Spike and Willow (she provided the resurrection book) helped Dawn deal with black magick?

Yes, in part. Unforseen consequences to messing with dark forces. Spike says it himself. That's why Spike feels so much guilt.

Unforseen consquences does not equate actual responsibility. Which is why it was tragic/unfortunate.

Besides, only the mentally ill could recognize the Key; Glory herself had to conjure that big snake - and the spell to do it was a very rare one. Doc was a mere demon, I don't think he would recognize the Key just by examining a strand of hair.
When Doc pulled Dawn's hair he said she had a “strong DNA”, which could mean that he figured out that she was related to someone powerful, even making the connection to the Slayer; later, when Xander and Spike went o talk to him,

No just the mentally ill, but also 'second-sight blokes'- monks for example. Rare and unique beings. Doc certainly qualifies.

So he he recognised who she was. He went from kindly old man to creepy demon looked at her with interested black eyes. Why else would he do that? Freak her out for no reason? No, he knew what she was and her significance.
It's only in hindsight that the viewere realises that.

SPIKE: Wonderful. But not why we're here. Hell-god type. Name of Glory has gone missing. She's brewing up some major-league bad, and she's nicked the Slayer's kid sister in the bargain.
DOC: Hmm. That girl you brought here. Sweet little thing.

Doc was lying to them. He lied to them mere moments later when he tried to send them to China for info on The Beast.
 

So Spikes now being blamed for Buffy's death.

Not blame, unindended consequences. There is a big difference. If you don't see it then whatever.

I don't blame Dawn and I don't blame Spike- it just happened. It was tragic.

 

[Silverspike]

"If you don't see it then whatever."

No, I really don't and I'm staggered anyone could 'join the dots' this way and come to this conclusion, but as you say 'whatever'. 🙂.

 

[gite63]

No, I really don't and I'm staggered anyone could 'join the dots' this way and come to this conclusion

In 14 years of fandom, I've never seen anybody say that Spike's grieving for Buffy, or that his devastation because he couldn't keep a "promise he made to a lady", was guilt for having got her killed...

 

[thetopher]

In 14 years of fandom, I've never seen anybody say that Spike's grieving for Buffy, or that his devastation because he couldn't keep a "promise he made to a lady", was guilt for having got her killed...

I've read this theory a couple of times actually from different sources. It's not an original idea...

And yeah, I never actually said this. I never said that Spike's guilt was just because he 'got her killed'. Spike tried to protect Dawn, he failed and felt guilty for failing her. Added to that was the knowledge that Doc was the one did it.

This is what Spike says to the rest of them in 'After Life':

SPIKE: The thing about magic? There's always consequences. Always.

What esle could Spike be refering to if not 'Forever' (which, btw, none of the Scoobies have any knowledge of his involvment). He's done spells in the past (the one to cure Dru) without any bad repercussions. But the spell to resurrect Joyce? That had very bad (unforseen) consequences.

 

[gite63]

He was clearly upset because they didn't tell him about bringing Buffy back. He thought he was one of the Scoobies and was deeply hurt to realize they didn't think of him as one of them.

Yes, he was, and still more because it was something about Buffy.

He'd talk about Willow not including him because if Buffy came back as a Zombie and Willow tried to get rid of her, he wouldn't let her. He'll keep Zombie Buffy alive. He said nothing about stopping them from doing it.

Maybe he would, ultimately, but he would be cautious initially - exactly because Buffy meant so much to him. He loved his mother, he turned her, and had to kill her; it was something that didn't work well.

The thing is Spike acts more based on his feelings then on his brain - and that could work both ways: I don't want another mom-fiasco; I want Buffy back no matter what.

 

[Silverspike]

In 14 years of fandom, I've never seen anybody say that Spike's grieving for Buffy, or that his devastation because he couldn't keep a "promise he made to a lady", was guilt for having got her killed...

Yeah I'm amazed. Amazed and more then a tad amused. I find it all a bit tenuous really. 🙂

 

[Buffy Summers]

Please either make a counter argument or leave it alone. Repeatedly putting down someone else's idea adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Wildfly]

And?

None of that had anything to do with Doc. Dawn was kidnapped by Glory before Weight Of The World in which is when Spike and Xander found out Doc's true alligence.
We never saw Doc and Glory/her minions intereract- so he didn't find out that way. We did see him examine Dawn's hair in Forever and then regard her with creepy interest (which Spike missed). He later appears in front of Dawn out of nowhere whilst Glory and her minions are fighting a separate battle and is then confronted by Spike.

You seriously didn''t get the connection between Forever and later on? It's a logical course of events and one of the main reasons why Spike feels so much guilt. He helped Dawn play with dangerous forces and their were 'consequences'.

It was inadvertant on Spike's part though. You might as well blame Dawn for setting the whole thing in motion, which would be just as unfair.

Actually Dawn cancelled the spell in the end, which was why they avoided the consequences of scary zombie-joyce appearing or something equally gruesome.
And while Doc's creepy interest in Dawn was suspicious, it happened in episode
17, 'Forever' and in episode 19 'Tough Love' when Glory speaks with Tara and does the lick-bloodtest to find out if she is the key she has clearly no idea about Dawn. It was enough for me to conclude that 1) either Doc had no idea that Dawn is the key, or 2) if he had suspected, he had no communication with Glory / trusted her enough to find out on her own and let things run their curse

So personally i think Joyce-resurrection was a close thing, and a potential disaster but i don't think it had other consequences besides wasting two perfectly good demon/drake eggs.

I actually wonder about Glory being so slow. She was the last to find out who her key is.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I actually wonder about Glory being so slow. She was the last to find out who her key is.

Accessorizing and shoe shopping takes time. She couldn't really be seen wearing last years pumps now could she? Get real.

 

[thetopher]

Actually Dawn cancelled the spell in the end, which was why they avoided the consequences of scary zombie-joyce appearing or something equally gruesome.
And while Doc's creepy interest in Dawn was suspicious, it happened in episode
17, 'Forever' and in episode 19 'Tough Love' when Glory speaks with Tara and does the lick-bloodtest to find out if she is the key she has clearly no idea about Dawn. It was enough for me to conclude that 1) either Doc had no idea that Dawn is the key, or 2) if he had suspected, he had no communication with Glory / trusted her enough to find out on her own and let things run their curse

But the spell was completed. Joyce (or whatever was in her place) was raised up. Dawn just cancelled the spell before she or Buffy could witness the effects. With dark magicks brought forth- there is always consequences- that's what Spike said.

I'm sure Spike blamed himself (needlessly) for what happened in the end, as did Dawn. But the fact that both Spike and Dawn were willing to give their lives to protect Buffy completely absolves them of responsibility in my view.

And personally I think Doc had no idea where Glory was. She wasn't in some underworld fleapit, tomb or crypt, she was in a swanky penthouse- why would he know where she was?
All he said was that he worshipped the Beast but he clearly wasn't a scabby minion follower of hers, nor do we ever see him anywhere near Glory (though he did possess some sacred texts that detailed the blood ritual/time the the apocalypse was due).
Ergo he found our separately to Glory and made his appearance on the tower on his own.

 

[gite63]

SPIKE: That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences.

Consequences of magic aren't a slap on the wrist given by God or some Good Power, as saying “bad, bad boy/girl, you did something very nasty and something bad will happen to you now!”

The consequence is something directly attached to the performing of the spell; it's a natural rule, not a punishment.

When Jonathan performed that spell that made him a superstar, it created a demon; same thing with Willow's magic: the spell to resurrect Buffy worked perfectly – but it also created a demon.

Dawn did a resurrection spell, but Joyce came back wrong – that was the consequence. Dawn didn't do a spell to rise a zombie – and certainly there are spells to rise zombies.

Hence, the Spike's mixed feelings - Buffy is back; magic has consequences: is she the same Buffy (apparently she is), or has she come back wrong?

SPIKE: Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.
 

Actually Dawn cancelled the spell in the end, which was why they avoided the consequences of scary zombie-joyce appearing or something equally gruesome.

Or maybe this is a better explanation - she did the spell, but she quit in time.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Dawn did a resurrection spell, but Joyce came back wrong – that was the consequence. Dawn didn't do a spell to rise a zombie – and certainly there are spells to rise zombies.

As best I can remember Joyce did NOT come back wrong. It never revealed how she came back. She could have been 100% normal and natural. They said she 'could' have come back wrong, but that was just nervousness talking. You were never shown her so you don't know. In my mind she was the same ole Joyce standing at the door.
 
@gite63 "If it walks like a duck, it is a duck." but you never saw it walk, not really. Buffy ambled around at first. Both Buffy and Joyce came back fine. The repercussions were not in whom they brought back but in who did the bringing.

 

[GwenRaiden]

The consequence is something directly attached to the performing of the spell; it's a natural rule, not a punishment.

And that's why I never "got" the apparent obvious connection of Spike and Dawn's guilt over Buffy's death as the consequence of the powerful magic they used. To me, that theory is completely out of character for the Buffyverse.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@Taake "makes me wonder what happened to Joyce's body. Did it just 'evaporate'?" I have often and frequently wondered that myself.

 

[Silverspike]

Yeah same here. Maybe thats because imo it could have been half a dozen off camera things Spike was referring to. He has been around fair old time and we don't know everything he's been and done.

The idea that what was done with Joyce would cause Buffy's death is just comes across to me as stretching things somewhat. I suspect the writers didn't join the dots that way either. I've never seen any interview with any of the writers who've even hinted at such a connection.

When it comes to repercussions I've always seen it as being that Spikes words was heralding Tara's death later in the season as that was the price for bringing Buffy back.

 

[gite63]

The idea that what was done with Joyce would cause Buffy's death is just comes across to me as stretching things somewhat. I suspect the writers didn't join the dots that way either. I've never seen any interview with any of the writers who've even hinted at such a connection.

I believe that the whole purpose of the episode was address the use of magic to resurrect a loved one and how things could go awfully wrong – and make it clear that Buffy was against it.

When it comes to repercussions I've always seen it as being that Spikes words was heralding Tara's death later in the season as that was the price for bringing Buffy back.

I don't think so. That just happened, it wasn't a consequence or a punishment. "Consequence of magic" seems to be always magical and not natural.

but you never saw it walk, not really.

We see Joyce's shadow twice; she wasn't injured when she died, and her "corpse" was walking like a zombie...

About the body: Doc said that to reverse the spell Dawn had to destroy the photo; "revert" could be "cancel", couldn't it? If it was canceled, it didn't happen. Or the body went back to her grave magically - it is there, if one is curious to look... I don't think it evaporated.

 

[Silverspike]

"I don't think so. That just happened, it wasn't a consequence or a punishment. "Consequence of magic" seems to be always magical and not natural."

Well imo If Buffy had stayed dead many things would be a lot different and Tara would have still been alive.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

and her "corpse" was walking like a zombie...

We saw Buffy walking like a zombie. Joyce was a normal human that had to dig her way from six feet underground, I am sure she'd be a little stiff and sore and it would affect her gait.