Wow, you really hate, despise, loathe Spike to take this scene as something bad... he was literally about to clean her wounds and somehow that was evil? OK, then.
Spike - why Buffy changed her attitude in S7
- Thread starter MarieVampSlayer
- Start date
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
On the difference between Angel/Angelus and Spike/Spike:
Imagine waking up realising you are a psychopathic murdering sadist with the perversity of Buffalo Bill and the comedic stylings of Jar Jar Binks. You would have to completely dissociate yourself from that.
On the other hand, imagine waking up realising you are a charming swashbuckling ladies' man. Of course, you're bad, but you are also kinda cool, especially if you can forget some of the more unsavoury things you have done. William constructed the persona of Spike. He was clearly influenced by things like Byron's epic poems. It was his own idea of a super hero. I don't think Liam wanted to be Leatherface, but I can imagine William dreaming of being Conrad the corsair.
Imagine waking up realising you are a psychopathic murdering sadist with the perversity of Buffalo Bill and the comedic stylings of Jar Jar Binks. You would have to completely dissociate yourself from that.
On the other hand, imagine waking up realising you are a charming swashbuckling ladies' man. Of course, you're bad, but you are also kinda cool, especially if you can forget some of the more unsavoury things you have done. William constructed the persona of Spike. He was clearly influenced by things like Byron's epic poems. It was his own idea of a super hero. I don't think Liam wanted to be Leatherface, but I can imagine William dreaming of being Conrad the corsair.
F
flow
May the Karma be with you :-)
No that's not what I am saying and it is what makes Spike worse than the ordinary Vampire , Spike had the ability to chose , to comfort Buffy, to appear to be concerned about her , but when the first chance he thought he could Kill he went out and tried , fully knowing it was the last thing Buffy would want him to do
Spike was clever he played at being the yob but that was a just a cover, from day 1 of Buffy being pulled out of heaven he knew that there was a very good chance she would come back wrong , he played the friend comforting her , listening to her , finding she was isolated from her friends he started again to stalk her again
Buffy felt she was different , the clinical depression she was suffering made her feel worthless , empty , once Spike found she had come different or as he taunted her "wrong" he took advantage of her and just as a every day stalker selfishly thinks they love their victims that was Spikes love
Just another point I have recently read two different accounts from different people both saying they love S6 that they love it because they could identify with Buffy , and just as I can identify with Spike sexual abuse of Buffy they could identify the feeling of worthlessness, being empty, self harming , only thing that they had different from Buffy was they had both tried to commit suicide
Spike of S7 treated Buffy as a concerned friend just as Xander did but with the writers pushing Spike the whole time Xander never got a look in ( even with one eye ) after CWDP...... pushing the whole Spuffy thing in 7..... so wrong belittle Buffy even more
OK, I'm just gonna stop arguing Spike with you, you obviously see him completely different from me and neither of us is going to change the other person's mind on anything having to do with him.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
I think you are giving Spike way too much credit. Did he count the days since Buffy's death just in case she would come back to life with a depression?
You could call Spike an abuser, but he is not a callous mastermind.
Hardly a long time and no doubt the scoobies talked about it 148 days
Yob..British slang = Young man who is aggressive rude and noisy
True Puppet I see Spike as a evil, selfish , parasitic Vampire up until he got his soul.....hang on that is what he was
MarieVampSlayer
Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
Haha that is a very funny!
I think the difference between the two is that they when they were turned, they were searching for different things.
Liam had no direction in life and he found his purpose in becoming a vampire and inflicting pain to others. Once that was gone when he got his soul back he had no more purpose in life and didn't know what to do with himself until Whistler showed him a new way. Therefore, Angel can never be like Angelus because they don't share the same goals.
William's purpose was to be loved and accepted by others. Once he became a vampire, he created this cool character to distant himself from his former self but he still wanted the same things. He had Dru but right away he had to share her with Angelus. So he killed slayers to prove himself and become the biggest baddest vampire and earn the respect of others. In the end, William and Spike shared the same goals and I think that is why they are more simular.
In a way, Spike's "Angel" personality is William as we see Buffy calling him by his human name when she want to separate him vampire persona to his man persona.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
Isn't there something chivalrous to evil Spike that sets him apart from Angelus. Killing slayers is completely nonsensical. It is dangerous and completely unproductive, because another one pops up the moment one dies. Spike does it to prove his courage and his commitment to Drusilla. There is something Errol Flynn about it. When Spike and Buffy fight the first time, Spike even agrees to disarm.
Of course, he did also torture people with spikes and kill little children, but we don't talk about that.
MarieVampSlayer
Well he still had a demon inside him so he can't be perfect :)
Yep very chivalrous they agree to disarm but first chance he gets he pulls out a 4x2 from the wall and beats a unarmed Buffy with it
Bragging rites he killed two slayers ..... just bragging rites, just the same as he could not hold back from bragging to Faith and Angel about him and Buffy bonking.....funny how he forgot to tell anyone about him trying to rape Buffy ?
Let's get back to topic guys, it's not about Spike, it's about why Buffy changed her attitude towards him in season 7!
🙂
🙂
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Mostly guilt; Spike's return- as a seeming figment in the basement- was a shock to Buffy (so much so that she told no-one after and acted like it didn't happen). But then in the next episode Spike shows up at her home and pretty much demands that he be allowed to help her with the 'big picture' evil that's coming. Buffy reluctantly agrees because of the stakes that seem to be involved (recurring dreams, etc) but remains cold and cautious. Good, this is sensible; Spike is also clearly hiding something from her and she can never allow herself to trust him.
And...then she finds out that he has a soul, she watches in horror as he moans half-naked in the church and reveals his burden, his insanity, he proclaims that 'this is what you wanted' and referencing servicing the girl- a reminder as to how she has treated him in the past.
Buffy is clearly stricken; pitying him but mostly there is that feeling 'you did this to him'; you used him and now he is suffering because of you. Buffy turned Angel into a monster, Buffy was never there for Riley, it is always Buffy's fault, that's how she views it.
Now, although Buffy then leaves him alone in the basement its worth noting that she takes a job near to where he is to keep an eye on him, visits him almost every episode, so clearly she is conflicted. At the same time she doesn't treat him with any warmth, he's still the man who hurt her.
And over the next few episodes Spike manages to proclaim his feelings over, tell her again why he got a soul, tel her how much she hurt him/used him, and also gets himself captured by the biggest of all evils.
All through this its pretty clear that Buffy becomes seriously invested in Spike and his new ensouled state; he proclamation to him in 'Never Leaves Me' is so full of hyperbole that it MUST be projection of some kind; Buffy needs to believe it and also Spike needs to hear it.
After that he becomes somebody she needs around even though she knows he is dangerous; that recklessness isn't borne out of love- since Buffy is perfectly able to act rationally and with cautious towards those she loves- her treatment of Angel in S3 showed us that much- but out of guilt; guilt is what makes Buffy do the questionable.
In the end it also leads her to re-examining how she views relationships in general. This is why 'Touched', her conversation with Spike in 'EoD' and her 'cookie dough' speech with Angel are so important. Sometimes things don't work out and it isn't her fault, sometimes she can't feel what perhaps she should feel, sometimes that's okay, nobody is entitled to her love just because they go do something; they can't demand those emotions from a person, that's not how love works.
And so when Buffy tells Spike 'I love you' and he says 'no you don't' she's just saying thank you' and Spike is realizing that truth and- for once- accepting it.
And...then she finds out that he has a soul, she watches in horror as he moans half-naked in the church and reveals his burden, his insanity, he proclaims that 'this is what you wanted' and referencing servicing the girl- a reminder as to how she has treated him in the past.
Buffy is clearly stricken; pitying him but mostly there is that feeling 'you did this to him'; you used him and now he is suffering because of you. Buffy turned Angel into a monster, Buffy was never there for Riley, it is always Buffy's fault, that's how she views it.
Now, although Buffy then leaves him alone in the basement its worth noting that she takes a job near to where he is to keep an eye on him, visits him almost every episode, so clearly she is conflicted. At the same time she doesn't treat him with any warmth, he's still the man who hurt her.
And over the next few episodes Spike manages to proclaim his feelings over, tell her again why he got a soul, tel her how much she hurt him/used him, and also gets himself captured by the biggest of all evils.
All through this its pretty clear that Buffy becomes seriously invested in Spike and his new ensouled state; he proclamation to him in 'Never Leaves Me' is so full of hyperbole that it MUST be projection of some kind; Buffy needs to believe it and also Spike needs to hear it.
After that he becomes somebody she needs around even though she knows he is dangerous; that recklessness isn't borne out of love- since Buffy is perfectly able to act rationally and with cautious towards those she loves- her treatment of Angel in S3 showed us that much- but out of guilt; guilt is what makes Buffy do the questionable.
In the end it also leads her to re-examining how she views relationships in general. This is why 'Touched', her conversation with Spike in 'EoD' and her 'cookie dough' speech with Angel are so important. Sometimes things don't work out and it isn't her fault, sometimes she can't feel what perhaps she should feel, sometimes that's okay, nobody is entitled to her love just because they go do something; they can't demand those emotions from a person, that's not how love works.
And so when Buffy tells Spike 'I love you' and he says 'no you don't' she's just saying thank you' and Spike is realizing that truth and- for once- accepting it.
Skanky Vamp
That's certainly one way to view it.
T
thrasherpix
I especially liked that insight into how Buffy feels guilt for Angel and Riley, even when she shouldn't, so it's natural for her to feel it over Spike, even though once again she shouldn't.
