Spike on Angel Season 5 Was it worth it or a waste of time ?

[Btvs fan]

I just wondered how people feel about bringing Spike back from the dead to be on Angel. Did people like or dislike it and was it worth it or fundamentally just a waste of time ??

 

[Taake]

Worth it. Easily.

I think Spike really grew on Angel, I love his interactions with Angel, but also the rest of the team - mainly Fred/Illyria.

Damage is a great episode for Spike, among others.

Much like Angel, I think it does Spike good to be away from Buffy. Yes, they still talk about her, but without having her as an immediate referent, it forces the writers to give the characters more individual motivations which is beneficial for them.

Basically, I love Spike on Ats 5. He’s a funny ghost, he grows when he is corporeal, and he fits well with the team. And again, I’m one of those who can’t get enough of Spike and Angel together, so, totally worth it🙂

 

[BaskingINBangel]

I love it! At first Spike comes off a bit too self righteous for my liking, but little by little he becomes more humble and I'd say around "A Hole in the World" is when I start to really like his character again, (after not caring for the route they took with his character in s5-7 of Buffy) and I feel like he starts to fit into the show better at this point.

He seems to be really impacted by Fred's death, and he decides that he wants to fight evil with Angel and his crew. He has a purpose and identity outside of chasing Buffy, which I find to be a breath of fresh air.

I'm also pretty fond of Angel and Spike's bromance. It's one of my favorite tv bromances of all time. I find their pettiness hilarious, and they play so well off each other imo. TGIQ is one of my favorite Spike/Angel episodes, they are downright hilarious the whole time, so I definitely think it was worth it to bring him over to Angel in s5.

 

[Puppet]

What @Taake said.

 

[nightshade]

At first Spike comes off a bit too self righteous for my liking, but little by little he becomes more humble and I'd say around "A Hole in the World" is when I start to really like his character again, (after not caring for the route they took with his character in s5-7 of Buffy) and I feel like he starts to fit into the show better at this point.

He seems to be really impacted by Fred's death, and he decides that he wants to fight evil with Angel and his crew. He has a purpose and identity outside of chasing Buffy, which I find to be a breath of fresh air.

Pretty much this, I didn't want him on Angel, I didn't enjoy him all that much on Buffy towards the end, but after a while I started to enjoy him.

 

[spikenbuffy]

Worth it, but I 'm maybe a little biased though as I'm such a big Spike fan. The end scenes of Shells or Power Play makes it totally worth it IMO.

Plus Spike & Fred's relationship was lovely!!

 

[one eyed chicklet]

Worth it!
At first I wasn't sure, especially since he went out in sacrificial way to save the world and plus, I did not want another 22 episodes of season 7 Spike. In a season that has quite a mix between the quality of the episodes, I have to say, Spike was one of the better parts of the season. In my eyes, it brought Spike back in my favour, he was still the old Spike but doing good for himself, not for anyone else. I think time away from Buffy really did Spike some good. Spike seems to have good chemistry with literally everyone, so he was always going to be a good choice to bring over to Angel. He fit in really well, it was good for Spike, reintroduced some comedy (which seemed to be lacking quite a bit in Ats season 4), and it also seemed to do some good for the other characters too.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I echo the opinions that it does Spike good to be away from Buffy. I dislike the direction his story took in Buffy Season 5-7 and I genuinely think the Spuffy ship, as presented in show, was a millstone around his neck that Angel Season 5 thankfully removes. for that reason alone, his time on Angel Season 5 was definitely worth it.

It was also nice to see him develop a friendship with Fred. Spike likes to look after the people he cares about so it hurts him deeply when something bad happens to them.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Totally worth it!!

• Spike totally needed a second act. I'm glad he didn't go out for good in the final episode of Buffy.
• For Angel the series: the show needed something to wash the sickness of season four away (though nothing really could do that).

James' performance was awesome, though at times it showed up David's more workmanlike acting, sometimes it was overly theatrical. I agree that Spike's character (and Angel's) both grew. Frankly, I'm not sure I would have watched season 5 without Spike. That said, it makes zero narrative sense that he would not try to go to Buffy right away -- even if it was just for a visit and to offer his fealty as a faithful lieutenant. But he sparkles on screen and more so than when he was the side show. On Buffy, it was her show, and the rest of the characters sort of shared 'second billing'. Angel the series was more of an ensemble project and I can't really explain why, but especially in seasons 2 and 3 it felt like it was about all of them. Spike's addition was a big plus... The only pity is that he tended to overpower the show and sideline Angel's team. A lot of the time it felt too much like the Angel and Spike show.

As a fan of the first three seasons of the show, I came to love the way the characters interacted. Season 5 was very glitzy and I didn't like a lot of it. Spike was a breath of fresh air and humor that made it feel less fake. If anyone could have saved the show, it was him, but I think pretty much once the Cordy/offspring sexcapades happened, the show was doomed. Sad because if they'd avoided that ONE turn, they might have had 7 seasons... (I think that lost them advertising money). Before that, season 4 was far and away the best season of the series. Visually, it was stunning and the twists and turns were fascinating... Spike gave the show a new lease on life, but in spite of Illyria's being interesting, IMO, killing off the only other female was the final nail.

I most enjoyed the episodes that focused on Spike and the episodes that had a lot of Spike/Angel interaction (other than the Girl in Question, which may well be the worst episode in the entire series). Like others, I really loved his relationship with Fred.

 

[RachM]

I like Spike far more on AtS than I ever did on BtVS and he does have fantastic growth during the season, but my disdain for his character and my frustration at his constant over-exposure means that I will always prefer for him not to appear, even if his appearance is positive.

I will always maintain that Faith would have been a better addition to AtS in Season 5 - she could have worked exactly the same way Spike did, as a foil for Angel to show how far he's strayed from his original path, and I feel that she had a better dynamic with a lot of the cast than Spike did (and it would have been nice to have another lead female with Cordy gone).

 

[katmobile]

I love it! At first Spike comes off a bit too self righteous for my liking, but little by little he becomes more humble and I'd say around "A Hole in the World" is when I start to really like his character again, (after not caring for the route they took with his character in s5-7 of Buffy) and I feel like he starts to fit into the show better at this point.

He seems to be really impacted by Fred's death, and he decides that he wants to fight evil with Angel and his crew. He has a purpose and identity outside of chasing Buffy, which I find to be a breath of fresh air.

I'm also pretty fond of Angel and Spike's bromance. It's one of my favorite tv bromances of all time. I find their pettiness hilarious, and they play so well off each other imo. TGIQ is one of my favorite Spike/Angel episodes, they are downright hilarious the whole time, so I definitely think it was worth it to bring him over to Angel in s5.

Just to show diversity of opinion I detest TGIQ and hate to see them both behaving like fools but yeah I think mostly it's great I love their bickering, their reluctant alley ship and the insight into their backstories and Damage. I really do not understand how anyone can dislike that episode if Anyanka cares to enlighten me at any stage because I'm geuninely curious/baffled.

 

[NeddaSai]

I liked him on Angel, but I really loved his heroic end in Chosen.. I dislike the "he's dead/no he's not" thing that some shows pull, it kinda cheapens the sacrifice.

However, his season on Angel was imo better for him as a character than his last season on Buffy! So it's kind of a wash for me.

 

[Bluebird]

Spike's destiny is to be shoehorned in to where he doesn't belong but Ats season 5 gave him a chance to shine, so I don't mind. He has a character and develops!

I adored his relationship with Fred, it felt so natural and genuine. There was some similarities in their personality and how they interact with others, so I do see them as kindred spirits in some way.

 

[November]

He was a ton of fun, I was thankful for him. Illyria interactions were hilarious and I want more.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

It's always fun when Spike is around and we needed him to be away from Buffy and to get rid of the bad impression left by the last season of Buffy. The rivalry between Spike and Angel is always entertaining and his relationship with Illyria is great fun. It gives Harmony a reason to be there and she is always fun too. The show needed someone to get Angel away from his brooding and into focused competition, even if the Cup of Destiny didn't have anything worthwhile in it. It needed the comedy of TGIQ even if Ilona's accent was the most ridiculously overacted part in the Buffyverse. It needed Spike to be the victim in Damage and the jarring message that none of the other slayers trust Angel anymore. There wouldn't have been many stories without him and more importantly, the stories without him would not have been as entertaining.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I enjoy Spike on AtS, but I enjoy most of S5, so I don't think he was that crucial.

I don't think it was worth losing him for Cordelia, though. Cordy had so many stories left in her. S5 sees the first appearance (kinda) of Wes's dad and the return of Fred's parents. It is criminal that Cordy never got an episode with her parents. Think how complicate a relationship they must have. They raised her up to believe money and success was everything, and then they go and get themselves locked in prison, forcing Cordy to build a new life upon other values.

And it would be great to see Cordy working at WRH. She used to imagine herself having a successful career. Now she would be there, though she would likely wonder at the cost. And she would be properly reunited with Harmony.

Shame! Shaaame!

But, yeah, Spike is a decent replacement.

 

[vampmogs]

I'm always a little taken aback by how many fans think Buffy stifled Spike's character. Whilst it's definitely true that Spike's character became extremely Buffy-centric in Season 5-7, he undoubtedly had more development in those seasons then in S2-S4 where he mostly remained unchanged.

Yes, the Spike of S2 is different to the Spike of S4 in the sense he transitioned from a threatening villain to pathetic, neutered vampire. However, those are mostly outside changes rather than actual character development. Whereas in Season 5-7 Buffy was the catalyst for transforming Spike from a soulless evil vampire to an ensouled hero. I think it goes without saying that most of Spike's character development happened within those seasons and that Buffy's character was extremely beneficial to him in this regard.

By the end of S4 it was clear, IMO, that Spike's character was growing stagnant and that the "whacky vampire neighbour" routine couldn't be sustained for much longer. Nor could he remain the villain he was in S2 over 7 seasons. When people say they find AtS Season 5 Spike preferable, it was only made possible coming off the back of his development in S5-S7 and with Buffy. I'm not saying you have to prefer him in S5-S7 but I think it's undeniable he progressed more.

 

[Btvs fan]

I'm always a little taken aback by how many fans think Buffy stifled Spike's character. Whilst it's definitely true that Spike's character became extremely Buffy-centric in Season 5-7, he undoubtedly had more development in those seasons then in S2-S4 where he mostly remained unchanged.

Yes, the Spike of S2 is different to the Spike of S4 in the sense he transitioned from a threatening villain to pathetic, neutered vampire. However, those are mostly outside changes rather than actual character development. Whereas in Season 5-7 Buffy was the catalyst for transforming Spike from a soulless evil vampire to an ensouled hero. I think it goes without saying that most of Spike's character development happened within those seasons and that Buffy's character was extremely beneficial to him in this regard.

By the end of S4 it was clear, IMO, that Spike's character was growing stagnant and that the "whacky vampire neighbour" routine couldn't be sustained for much longer. Nor could he remain the villain he was in S2 over 7 seasons. When people say they find AtS Season 5 Spike preferable, it was only made possible coming off the back of his development in S5-S7 and with Buffy. I'm not saying you have to prefer him in S5-S7 but I think it's undeniable he progressed more.

I agree with this completely.
Ie S4 he would just turn up for one scene per episode and even Joss admits it's Can I borrow a cup of coffee and insult you. At the time it was airing I remember James Marsters openly saying in interviews that he'd rather go be the villain on Angel than that and was frustrated by it.
It's not till Fool For Love that he gets some actual character development. Even then its tempered by the writers not sure how to take it with David Fury openly saying they shouldn't as it makes Angel less special (at the time) and Joss saying there were huge arguments in the writers room over Spike.

Personally I found the idea of a souless being doing good inspite of himself and becoming an anti hero and his relationship with Buffy where she is falling in love with him inspite of herself much more interesting than a 1 dimensional villain who shows up saying this time I will destroy Buffy or Angel (depending on the show) and getting his arse kicked. That's what happened in Harsh Light of Day and In The Dark 🤷‍♂️

My big gripe for Angel S5 was the writers deliberately making Spike a bit more stupid to make Angel look better by comparison. It annoyed the hell out of me

 

[katmobile]

I don't think they did - both chracters were in limbo and figuring out where they fitted into the world now and also working through the fact they were alike in some ways but different enough to irritate each other.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

My big gripe for Angel S5 was the writers deliberately making Spike a bit more stupid to make Angel look better by comparison. It annoyed the hell out of me

I actually think they made Spike a bit more stupid from Buffy Season 5 onwards, possibly even the backend of Season 4 where he says to Adam "Well, hey, you're supposed to be so smart. You let me plan this thing."

Spike is the only big bad on Buffy that actually achieved his master plan of making Dru well again. Although Buffy intervened before Angel died (which only happened because Willy brought her directly to Spike and Spike pointed out how stupid that was), the ritual still worked. Spike also nearly killed Buffy twice during Season 2 and was only prevented from doing so by the actions of others (Joyce with the axe, Giles breaking Ethan's halloween spell). In Lie to Me, Buffy would've been outnumbered and killed in the basement if the writers hadn't put Dru there literally for Buffy to use as leverage against Spike; in WML Parts 1&2, Spike sets the order of Taraka on Buffy because he wants her out of the way so she can't interfere. The order of Taraka is meant to be expert assassins, hence why Dalton asks if it's a little "overkill", Spike doesn't want to take any chances. That's smart, above villainy level smartness. As I said above, the only reason why Buffy was able to save Angel was because Willy screwed up and took Buffy to Spike alive. If that hadn't happened, then Spike would've succeeded and Angel would be dead.

In Season 2, the only reason why Spike doesn't succeed is because of the actions of others, not his own fault. He still successfully negotiates a get out of jail free card for himself and Dru, despite the fact that Buffy made it clear she wanted to kill Dru for Kendra's murder. As the seasons wear on, Spike's ability to successfully pull off a plan becomes less and less.