Should Dawn Have Died At The End of Season 5?

[RagnarockerB]

I like the idea of Dawn as a character. I do wish she was less of a klepto and I do wish that she made more of a contribution in each episode than to simply cause the conflict, but if we go by TPN's interpretation of the mantle of The Slayer being the path to adulthood, and part of adulthood is outliving your parents and dealing with the consequences thereof, then I think Dawn definitely serves a purpose, at least in the sense of being a plot device. She's Buffy's first real taste of adult responsibility. Whereas the mantle of The Slayer forced Buffy to harden in order to deal with the demons that us, the mantle of parental figure forces Buffy to mature.

That said, when Dawn was introduced I was fuming. It took me a good week to forgive Whedon for what I thought was the most obnoxious retcon of all time. And I think it annoyed me even further when it turned out to kind of not be a retcon. Coming off the questionable decisions in Season 4 to then have to accept Dawn as a new central cast member as if she isn't a total stranger to us was kind of a blow. To top it all off, Dawn has to be the brattiest teenager to ever be born. A lot of us have real life analogs, and perhaps some of us even were the same kind of teen; But, my God, it got to the point where she seems more like a caricature than a character. Sometimes she was pretty justified. Most times she was just being kind of a shitty kid. I can't relate to that now and it would have felt patronizing and stereotypical to me as a 14-year-old so to the five people who do relate to Dawn, I find you an intriguing bunch. Not to also say that her inclusion into the story felt like it was made to cram in a character for younger audience members to relate to, now that the characters had matured from plucky teenagers into wayward young adults.

Still, I don't think Dawn should have died, nor do I think it would ever be in Buffy's nature to let a child face the responsibility she had to when she was a teenager. Being told your death is either necessary or imminent is a burden Buffy has had to bear herself, and I think Buffy would rather die than let her little sister have to bear the burden that she once had to. Even if I've come dangerously close to rooting for the vampires trying to eat Dawn, I love Buffy a little too much to want her to go through that kind of suffering.

Joss should have thought of her in the beginning. Had Dawn stuck with us for the entire journey, I'd likely have appreciated her more, and so would many of the fans.

 

[Alittlegrim]

All great points. You seem to have a similar thought process to mine. I wouldn't say I relate to Dawn being a 30-something man but I understand her from a personality and plot stand point. There are certainly times when they go overboard making her pretty awful but this is not all the time and there are enough moments when I feel genuinely bad for her that I know she is sometimes justified. Her abandonment issues in s6 while a point of conflict are understandable in context. She is just a kid who has had two major losses within a year. Only to have her sister come back. I can see where she might not have a really strong sense of security.

 

[GraceK]

when she was introduced in season 5, I was 14 as well, and I never related to her AT ALL. I was a brat, yes, 🙂, but neither I or my friends acted like 4 years olds. We had boyfriends and dealt with a lot of things that would have felt GROSS to see Dawn deal with because she was portrayed like a 10 year old. It was worse in season 6 when she’s 15 and hasn’t changed. I think that was the main problem I always had with her.

 

[RomanticSoul]

The problem will forever be how the story was done. I still don't understand the need for the mind-altering. That's why I don't see their relationship as 'true'. Both of them have a relationship that is purely fabricated. I don't care that they both know it's fake and accept it. They are still acting out of those false memories. For me it would have been much more real and emotional if it had involved choice. If Dawn had been brought in sooner, her and Buffy just clicked and developed a sisterly bond naturally then it would have had way more impact on me. Instead of this being forced on Buffy (and Joyce) which I vehemently despise. Buffy and Dawn choosing each other as sisters and then one sacrifices her life for the other, I'm down with that. Long as no one was forced, had their mind altered, possibly programmed to sacrifice herself etc. then Buffy dying instead of Dawn would have been beautiful.

As it was, all I wanted was to push Dawn down the tower, for everyone to get their original memories back and reset them to S4. This way all the OOC-ness and forced adoption and fake-ness just goes away.

 

[GraceK]

Dawn choosing each other as sisters and then one sacrifices her life for the other, I'm down with that. Long as no one was forced, had their mind altered, possibly programmed to sacrifice herself etc. then Buffy dying instead of Dawn would have been beautiful.

I agree. It would have been interesting to me personally if when Buffy is resurrected, she is resurrected to her original self. As in, the false memories of Dawn are no longer present. That would been really cool because it would it give Dawn a genuine reason to be an angsty brat instead of the obnoxiousness we got instead .

 

[S Rou]

The problem will forever be how the story was done. I still don't understand the need for the mind-altering. That's why I don't see their relationship as 'true'. Both of them have a relationship that is purely fabricated. I don't care that they both know it's fake and accept it. They are still acting out of those false memories. For me it would have been much more real and emotional if it had involved choice. If Dawn had been brought in sooner, her and Buffy just clicked and developed a sisterly bond naturally then it would have had way more impact on me. Instead of this being forced on Buffy (and Joyce) which I vehemently despise. Buffy and Dawn choosing each other as sisters and then one sacrifices her life for the other, I'm down with that. Long as no one was forced, had their mind altered, possibly programmed to sacrifice herself etc. then Buffy dying instead of Dawn would have been beautiful.

As it was, all I wanted was to push Dawn down the tower, for everyone to get their original memories back and reset them to S4. This way all the OOC-ness and forced adoption and fake-ness just goes away.

I agree with you immensely. The Buffy-Dawn relationship is purely fabricated. I never bought into the whole sisters thing. It just seemed so forced and fake to me.

I laughed so hard when dark Willow confronted dawn and called her a "ball of energy" and basically told her about the brutally honest truth of her human existence.

I feel that dawn could've been a much better character if she wasn't buffy's "sister." What I mean is that I think if the "sister" thing wasn't forced and dawn was introduced in a different way, It could've been a lot better. Like, if maybe Buffy for some reason felt the need to volunteer at an after school program or something for abused kids and dawn was there and had this horrible family background, and Buffy connected with her and related to her, and then it just so happened that dawn was the key and the spell led Buffy to her (hence the sudden urge to volunteer at an after school program), than dawn could've been a lot more likeable.

But the whole sisters thing and everyone's memories being drastically altered? No. Its ridiculous and totally destroys everyone's memories of what really happened in the first four seasons and for Buffy and Joyce, pretty much their entire lives

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I agree with you immensely. The Buffy-Dawn relationship is purely fabricated. I never bought into the whole sisters thing. It just seemed so forced and fake to me.

I laughed so hard when dark Willow confronted dawn and called her a "ball of energy" and basically told her about the brutally honest truth of her human existence.

I feel that dawn could've been a much better character if she wasn't buffy's "sister." What I mean is that I think if the "sister" thing wasn't forced and dawn was introduced in a different way, It could've been a lot better. Like, if maybe Buffy for some reason felt the need to volunteer at an after school program or something for abused kids and dawn was there and had this horrible family background, and Buffy connected with her and related to her, and then it just so happened that dawn was the key and the spell led Buffy to her (hence the sudden urge to volunteer at an after school program), than dawn could've been a lot more likeable.

But the whole sisters thing and everyone's memories being drastically altered? No. Its ridiculous and totally destroys everyone's memories of what really happened in the first four seasons and for Buffy and Joyce, pretty much their entire lives

One ironic way of introducing Dawn would be to have Hank and Joyce signed up as godparents to Dawn, meaning Dawn will join their family if her parents die. Well, people have a habit of dying in large numbers in Sunnydale and when their time comes up, Dawn appears on their doorstep. No magic required but she would still be a ball of energy.

If Dawn had remained with the existing backstory but had been killed in "Chosen", we may have seen any memory and record of her disappearing, but not everywhere and not at the same rate. What if only the demon world retained her memory? This could be like everyone's gradual forgetfulness of Johnathan at the end of "Superstar" where his image was everywhere then nowhere but some people retained a memory of him for a few days. Or what if a selected individual such as Xander, Spike or Willow retained memory of her. We see this in the comics with the death of magic but it would have been more powerful in the show.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

As soon as Dawn became real and everyone remembered her, she became real for everyone. Why? Because we are what we remember. People are who they are in our minds because of how we remember them. The memories might have been inserted, but after a while, it doesn't matter... these people remember loving each other, and therefore, they do love each other.

And Dawn remembers being and belonging. Her memories didn't happen, but her feelings and understanding of herself are utterly real.

Yes, it's not necessarily fair that the powers do that to everyone, but it is different from Jonathan... b/c he did it essentially to make himself god. They put Dawn into Buffy's life to save the world. Not fun, but justifiable.

And frankly? After losing Joyce? I'm glad Buffy isn't utterly alone.
 
In a way, it's like an adoption, but magical... doesn't matter how she became her sister, once she's there and they love each other, they're sisters.
 
And no, she should definitely not have died, in case anyone's not clear on my answer to the question!

 

[EarthLogic]

Well technically, she should have died since she was the Key, not Buffy, so only she should really have been able to close the portal. But as to whether Dawn should have been killed off and had her story finished then no, I don't think so. I loved the idea of Buffy having an intense bond with someone that was sororal instead of romantic/boyfriend-related and I think we needed that in a feminist show. I don't understand the hate she gets. Yes she's bratty and childish in S5, but she's 15 and she's the baby of the family. The baby always get more attention and is usually more spoiled and little more childish as a result. Having a younger sister myself I know what it's like so I can put up with her being annoying because that's how younger sisters are! I can relate to 100% 😛

I actually think the show failed to capitalise on the potential of this dynamic. The bond between Buffy and Dawn could have had a more prominent role in seasons 6 and 7 but kind of ended up taking a back seat to everything else. Dawn was definitely done a disservice in S6. Instead of gaining greater depth as a character from her experiences at the end of season 5 - finding out she's not real, Glory, Buffy's death - she was regressed to her earlier whining about nobody paying attention to her and mainly served in whatever capacity the story of the week needed her to. She has no arc of her own, which is a real shame.

As soon as Dawn became real and everyone remembered her, she became real for everyone. Why? Because we are what we remember. People are who they are in our minds because of how we remember them. The memories might have been inserted, but after a while, it doesn't matter... these people remember loving each other, and therefore, they do love each other.

And Dawn remembers being and belonging. Her memories didn't happen, but her feelings and understanding of herself are utterly real.

I agree that she was real because everyone's memories and acceptance of her was real, but I think people are justified in their annoyance that the ethics and impact of the memory alteration spell was never questioned by any of the characters. It was clearly something done in great detail, which means it affected memories in great detail. Sometimes our remembrance of events or moments, and therefore the significance they hold for us, are shaped by minutiae: sounds, certain thoughts, certain things happening in a particular way. Having Dawn inserted into those memories would have undoubtedly changed some of those and given them different meaning. It would have also changed Buffy's character. Growing up with a sibling and growing up as an only child shape a person in different ways. The implications of this are never explored.

I think it would have been interesting (and poignant) if everyone somehow regained their unaltered memories alongside their Dawnified ones, a bit like Connor did, and then chose to accept Dawn as their own anyway.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I would have liked the real memories restored. I do this in one of my stories, actually. Remove ALL memory spells... the day Angel gave back, Dawn/predawn, pre-spell and post-spell Connor.

 

[EarthLogic]

@GraceK I do agree with you that Dawn was portrayed as younger than her age, which at times does make her feel a little contrived. While I can see her still acting bratty at 14/15, the idea that she wants to constantly hang out with the Scoobies is a bit odd. When you're 15 you have your own friendship group and you start to define yourself in relation to them more than anything else. At that point you want to be seen as more grown-up, with your individual tastes and opinions. I can understand her taking a liking to Buffy's friends if they're kind to her and more importantly don't treat her like a child, but I don't see how she'd be more content to spend time with them over her own friends.

Remove ALL memory spells... the day Angel gave back

That wasn't a memory spell, though. The Oracles actually reversed time.

pre-spell and post-spell Connor.

So what happened to Connor in your fic? Pre-spell, he was traumatised and suicidal, so if you removed those fabricated memories, what did that leave?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

but I don't see how she'd be more content to spend time with them over her own friends.

She didn't have any friends because she wasn't real. If she had friends, other than her sister, she might not hang around her sister all the time thus might be vulnerable to Glorificus. It wasn't until the next season that she started to make friends.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

We see Dawn having friends or trying to make friends several times, but usually something happens to sabotage it.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Yes, the oracles gave the day back, but for the purposes of people whose memories were lost, it is a distinction without a choice... the 'real' day was stolen artificially... so it was given back.

It's my story, so I'm sticking to it!! 😎

 

[EarthLogic]

She didn't have any friends because she wasn't real.

Yes she did. The monks created an entire life for her, with memories of family and friends past and present.

In 'Real Me' Joyce tells Buffy to take Dawn shopping for back-to-school supplies. If she's going back to school she must have memories of being there and interacting with people, so the monks likely altered people's memories to remember Dawn as part of the school/ a group of friends. Also the next episode Dawn says: 'My friend Sharon's older brother knows a girl who died 'cause she choked on her boyfriend's tongue.' So yeah, she had friends.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

She didn't have any friends because she wasn't real. If she had friends, other than her sister, she might not hang around her sister all the time thus might be vulnerable to Glorificus. It wasn't until the next season that she started to make friends.

So, because I'm the new kid in town and I don't have any friends, I'm not real? sorry, not buyin' whatcha smokin!! 😉

Means I haven't been real many times, b/c I was always the new kid!
 

@GraceK
So what happened to Connor in your fic? Pre-spell, he was traumatised and suicidal, so if you removed those fabricated memories, what did that leave?

As explained in my fic, he doesn't lose the new memories, he just gets all his memories back. Once you encode stuff into the brain, IMO, it's there forever unless you're brain damaged. And since the story's not finished, we don't know all of the effects, but in other stories I've written, his new memories have served him well even after he gets the old ones back.

 

[EarthLogic]

As explained in my fic, he doesn't lose the new memories, he just gets all his memories back. Once you encode stuff into the brain, IMO, it's there forever unless you're brain damaged. And since the story's not finished, we don't know all of the effects, but in other stories I've written, his new memories have served him well even after he gets the old ones back.

Oh ok. So it basically followed the show then. (I'm not being sarcastic or anything, in case that's how it comes across🙂)

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

yes, Dawn was portrayed as much younger than she was. Bad writing decision or the lack of 14 year old children in the lives of the writers, I don't know... It's unfortunate. I like who she grew into much more than who she was in her first season.

And truthfully... I know some very whiny people. Maybe that is part of her personality.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So, because I'm the new kid in town and I don't have any friends, I'm not real?

But she wasn't the new kid in town. She had been in town for 5 years. She could have made friends in five years. The monks didn't want her to have friends.

 

[EarthLogic]

But she wasn't the new kid in town. She had been in town for 5 years. She could have made friends in five years. The monks didn't want her to have friends.

But she did - Sharon, to name one!