Should Dawn Have Died At The End of Season 5?

[flow]

Buffy seemed to have no problem with sending the zookeeper to his death by hyena pack in "The Pack". I don't think she is as averse to killing humans as we are led to believe.

I have to admit that I haven`t seen season 1 yet. I have ordered it just now and I will come back to this thread after I have watched "The Pack". This summary

The Pack

seems to suggest though that the zookeeper was killed in a fight ?

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[Priceless]

I have to admit that I haven`t seen season 1 yet. I have ordered it just now and I will come back to this thread after I have watched "The Pack". This summary

The Pack

seems to suggest though that the zookeeper was killed in a fight ?

flow

The zookeeper was threatening Willow, I think he was going to throw her to the hyenas, so it wasn't as though Buffy killed an innocent bystander

 

[DeadlyDuo]

The Zookeeper took on the Hyena demon so at that juncture, he kind of wasn't human anymore.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Killing and murder are two different things and Buffy has shown herself capable of doing both. She has killed people in the line of duty since S1. She also tried to murder (Ted, Faith). So lets not pretend Buffy is all that virtuous.

Buffy had three options to save the universe (or at least Sunnydale) from being turned into a hell dimension.

1. Kill Dawn
2. Sacrifice her own life
3. Let Dawn sacrifice herself

Going for the first option would have been the easiest way out. But wouldn`t it have been a cowardly way out ?An if it really would have been utalitarian, who would be the one to judge ? Who should have been the one to make this decision ? Would Buffy have been right to decide to kill her sister rather than sacrifive herself - even if it was for the safety of our universe - from an utalitarian point of view ? Certainly not, because she would have become jury, judge, executor and beneficiary in one person. Buffy does not choose the second option and that makes her a real hero and a champion.

Actually Buffy has only 2 options. Kill Dawn or let Dawn sacrifice herself. She had already decided to do neither until her epiphany of self-sacrifice which I discard. It was like Whedon standing there on the tower with her holding up a sign that said 'I pulled this out of my ass.' The problem for me to this day remains that Buffy sacrificing herself is utter BS because it shouldn't have worked. Reverse Biology in reproduction just doesn't exist. Basic Biology knowledge that you get in school would have taught Whedon that.

Buffy didn't jump into a portal, she had jumped over the shark.

 

[sk]

I don't understand what real world biology has anything to do with it.
Whedon did probably learn in school that vampires can't exists either but wrote a story like Buffy anyway.

Why should he start worrying about stuff like that in season 5?

/SK

 

[RomanticSoul]

I don't understand what real world biology has anything to do with it.
Whedon did probably learn in school that vampires can't exists either but wrote a story like Buffy anyway.

Why should he start worrying about stuff like that in season 5?

/SK

An example someone used for the Dawn/Buffy crap that has always stuck with me. 'Every poodle is a dog, but not every dog is a poodle.' So while Dawn may have Buffy's blood and is made from her, it doesn't retroactively make Buffy a Key too. Because biology doesn't work like that. Dawn is the key with key blood. Buffy doesn't magically become a key with key blood because her blood was used to create Dawn. If you give birth to a God, does that retroactively make you a God too? No, because that's not how biology works.

No clue what vampires have to do with that.

 

[sk]

I just think that the fact that Dawn is a Key to a hell dimension made out of, whatever she was made of, throws any sensible explanations out the window anyway.
Why would anything work in any particular way? It's made up magic not biology.

What surprised me was the remark that Whedon should've been better educated and understand how impossible this whole thing is.
Of course he does. He just ignores it just like he, and the other writers, has done countless of other times from episode one of the show.
Why expect anything else this time?

/SK

 

[RomanticSoul]

I just think that the fact that Dawn is a Key to a hell dimension made out of, whatever she was made of, throws any sensible explanations out the window anyway.
Why would anything work in any particular way? It's made up magic not biology.

Look, I accept the fact that Dawn looks nothing like Buffy despite Buffy being the only DNA source to give Dawn a human form. I just explain it away with the fact that the key is mystical energy. So it's not like I have trouble with the whole concept in general.

The fact remains though that Dawn was the Key and only Key blood would be able to open/close the portal. The only way that Buffy can take Dawn's place is if Buffy suddenly has Key blood too. All that 'death is her gift' nonsense doesn't matter to me because even though slayers are mystical in their own way, they are not Keys. Buffy's epiphany was 2 sided. One was the 'death is her gift thing' and the other was that because Dawn is made of her, she also can function as Key. And that's simply not true. Just because Dawn is made from her doesn't retroactively make Buffy a Key with Key blood. And if that's possible or the case then we should have been told that.

What surprised me was the remark that Whedon should've been better educated and understand how impossible this whole thing is.

You are right. Why should I expect anything from a guy who himself has said 'I don't know from science.'? Sorry, my bad.

 

[S Rou]

Trust me. I'll do my very best 😡


I want to point out that Buffy does not seem to like Tara all that much at this point. I think her family-comment is a gesture to Willow.

Cold-hearted pragmatism isn't really a defining feature of Buffy. The order of knights that hunt Dawn serve as a foil to the Scooby gang, just as the Initiative did in the last season.

You are incredibly hard on Dawn. Buffy is not always the greatest big sister or substitute mum. I do not see why her being a "spoiled brat" matters. Does that make her more deserving of being made a sacrifice.

There is no way in Hell Spike would have voted to kill Dawn. I know he is evil, but that just would not be his style. Spike would rather face Glory head on, like he did the slayers he killed. Furthermore, he loved the little Bit, and when Spike loves someone, an apocalypse isn't going to make him turn on them.

I think it was brave - perhaps foolish - to introduce Dawn so late in the show and have her be at odds with Buffy so often. Still, Dawn was a great character with so many amazing moments. She had great chemistry with the other cast, she was a great dancer and she was always relatable.

This is the girl you want to kill off.

Not just me... More than half the fandom wants her gone.

 

[Slayrunt]

i liked Dawn because she gave Buffy a reason to keep fighting. in the beginning it seemed her reasons for fighting werent too clear and she just felt she had a duty. but then having a close bond like a sister around gives a stronger meaning to fighting.. so it makes sense to me.
although i suppose it would have been interesting to see where the story went if dawn had died and how Buffy would deal with that.

 

[Mylie]

The relationship between Buffy/Dawn is the one thing that made Buffy appear more human and relatable to me in the last 2 seasons. I don't want to imagine what Buffy would have been like without Dawn to remind her that life and love still mattered.

Dawn dying would have broken Buffy even more than her own death and coming back, in my personal opinion. There's a reason why she decided to sacrifice herself. She was done losing people and Dawn was the most innocent part of herself. Had it died, I think Buffy Summers, as we know her, would have died even more so then she did. Season 6 was already depressing enough as it is without adding Buffy feeling survivor's guilt and the failure of protecting the one person that mattered to her the most. After losing her mother and feeling helpless in doing so, that would have just been pilling it up. Based on what she said in The Gift (I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices, if everything just gets stripped away, I don't see the point), I don't see how she would have not killed herself. She wouldn't have had Dawn to think of and help her want to live again.

 

[S Rou]

Look, I accept the fact that Dawn looks nothing like Buffy despite Buffy being the only DNA source to give Dawn a human form. I just explain it away with the fact that the key is mystical energy. So it's not like I have trouble with the whole concept in general.

The fact remains though that Dawn was the Key and only Key blood would be able to open/close the portal. The only way that Buffy can take Dawn's place is if Buffy suddenly has Key blood too. All that 'death is her gift' nonsense doesn't matter to me because even though slayers are mystical in their own way, they are not Keys. Buffy's epiphany was 2 sided. One was the 'death is her gift thing' and the other was that because Dawn is made of her, she also can function as Key. And that's simply not true. Just because Dawn is made from her doesn't retroactively make Buffy a Key with Key blood. And if that's possible or the case then we should have been told that.


You are right. Why should I expect anything from a guy who himself has said 'I don't know from science.'? Sorry, my bad.

I strongly agree. Many fans have pointed this out too... The whole Buffy dying in Dawn's place thing should not have worked. Buffy is not the key. Dawn is. The blood thing was very wishy washy and flawed as a concept. Also, even if it does somehow make sense, it was still a major cop out on Whedon's part. He was just forcing dawn down our throats even though he knew most of the fandom hated her vehemently.

 

[Fenrir]

i liked Dawn because she gave Buffy a reason to keep fighting. in the beginning it seemed her reasons for fighting werent too clear and she just felt she had a duty. but then having a close bond like a sister around gives a stronger meaning to fighting.. so it makes sense to me.
although i suppose it would have been interesting to see where the story went if dawn had died and how Buffy would deal with that.

Buffy already had family. Adding in a sister when she already had Willow (and the other Scoobies) seemed unnecessary. Dawn was a walking plot device who stayed way past her plot. I can't think of anything meaningful she adds in the next two seasons. Half the time she just seemed like the damsel in distress (often due to her own mistakes) in a show trying to stop women from just being portrayed as the damsel in distress. There are a few episodes where she's portrayed as a bit stronger but it's kinda rare.

Also she's sooo whiny.

 

[Alittlegrim]

Good question. There are definite arguments for this and honestly the KoB had a point. Fate of the universes and all that. It would be difficult to see a child, or what looks like a child, die but really it would be a lot easier just to kill Dawn quick. Yet, that is part of the problem. It is too easy. A major theme of the show has been doing the hard thing, because it needs to be done. No way Whedon would have allowed for such an easy out. Which is also why no on just killed Ben, technically another innocent person, before things could get really bad. A major moral issue is the fact that while Dawn is not Buffy's real sister she is real and human and innocent, despite being a brat. I will go with the idea that she should not have been written in to start with. Season 5 could have worked just as well with a different form for the key and Dawn added little to seasons 6 and 7.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Good question. There are definite arguments for this and honestly the KoB had a point. Fate of the universes and all that. It would be difficult to see a child, or what looks like a child, die but really it would be a lot easier just to kill Dawn quick. Yet, that is part of the problem. It is too easy. A major theme of the show has been doing the hard thing, because it needs to be done. No way Whedon would have allowed for such an easy out. Which is also why no on just killed Ben, technically another innocent person, before things could get really bad. A major moral issue is the fact that while Dawn is not Buffy's real sister she is real and human and innocent, despite being a brat. I will go with the idea that she should not have been written in to start with. Season 5 could have worked just as well with a different form for the key and Dawn added little to seasons 6 and 7.

I have to disagree with opinions like this. Dawn is absolutely essential to Buffy's development. Prior to Dawn, Buffy suffered from the same selfish and self-centered habits of most people her age. Yes, she had friends and she loved them, but her friends never caused Buffy to learn self-sacrifice either. This growth could only happen after Dawn. Having a sister meant that Buffy had to live with someone else in mind. An older sibling has to set an example and has to provide a different type of love and sacrifice that one does not require to extend to friends. Buffy's choice to sacrifice herself for Dawn was the entire point of season 5. To simply eliminate Dawn in some other fashion or to suggest that Dawn jump to her death instead is to miss the most essential point of the season: self-sacrifice, selflessness for the sake of love, a love that Buffy couldn't learn from anyone else but Dawn. Removing Dawn in some negligent way would be literally to contradict the entire premise and development of the Season 5 arc.

 

[Alittlegrim]

I have to disagree with opinions like this. Dawn is absolutely essential to Buffy's development. Prior to Dawn, Buffy suffered from the same selfish and self-centered habits of most people her age. Yes, she had friends and she loved them, but her friends never caused Buffy to learn self-sacrifice either. This growth could only happen after Dawn. Having a sister meant that Buffy had to live with someone else in mind. An older sibling has to set an example and has to provide a different type of love and sacrifice that one does not require to extend to friends. Buffy's choice to sacrifice herself for Dawn was the entire point of season 5. To simply eliminate Dawn in some other fashion or to suggest that Dawn jump to her death instead is to miss the most essential point of the season: self-sacrifice, selflessness for the sake of love, a love that Buffy couldn't learn from anyone else but Dawn. Removing Dawn in some negligent way would be literally to contradict the entire premise and development of the Season 5 arc.

Buffy never near would have learned self-sacrifice? Really? Okay. I would say that letting Angel feed on her until she nearly died is pretty selfless but I guess I'm a romantic.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Buffy never near would have learned self-sacrifice? Really? Okay. I would say that letting Angel feed on her until she nearly died is pretty selfless but I guess I'm a romantic.

Yes, really. I'm speaking of learning deep self-sacrifice in terms of living (and dying) for the sake of another. Also, it could be argued that that act for Angel was done selfishly actually (to keep her boyfriend alive to keep him). The differences are important and obvious, I think.
 
Or in other words, internalizing selflessness as a modality of being, as opposed to an impulsive (and selfish) act like letting Angel feed on her.

 

[Alittlegrim]

I think I sense an ethicist (not sarcasm). That is a fair point. I can't see this sort of development with Buffy happening another way. I have actually noticed some classically parent-like behavior on the part of Buffy in terms of Dawn. Not that I see Buffy literally as Dawn's mother but she is filling the parental role after Joyce died. You will notice however that I never said Dawn should have died at the end of season 5. I am actually, personally, happy that she lived, being the kind of wuss who had to look away when Doc started cutting her. Though much of this development in Buffy came about with in season 5 the arc, and originally the series, being completed with Buffy's sacrifice. Technically, seasons 6 and 7 weren't supposed to happen. It was only an 11th Hour deal with UPN that made them possible. Which is be why Dawn can seem somewhat forced at times. The writers had to find a way to fit her into the plots outside her original arc and purpose as The Key and Buffy's moral compass. To be fair to both the charecter and Michelle Trachtenberg, a lot of the weakness in Dawn in later seasons stems from the writing though there are also moments of brilliance such as when she talks Buffy down from the Tower. I also felt for her abandonment issues in s6 which seem to me perfectly justified. She has just seen her mother and sister die.

 

[Mylie]

I have to disagree with opinions like this. Dawn is absolutely essential to Buffy's development. Prior to Dawn, Buffy suffered from the same selfish and self-centered habits of most people her age. Yes, she had friends and she loved them, but her friends never caused Buffy to learn self-sacrifice either. This growth could only happen after Dawn. Having a sister meant that Buffy had to live with someone else in mind. An older sibling has to set an example and has to provide a different type of love and sacrifice that one does not require to extend to friends. Buffy's choice to sacrifice herself for Dawn was the entire point of season 5. To simply eliminate Dawn in some other fashion or to suggest that Dawn jump to her death instead is to miss the most essential point of the season: self-sacrifice, selflessness for the sake of love, a love that Buffy couldn't learn from anyone else but Dawn. Removing Dawn in some negligent way would be literally to contradict the entire premise and development of the Season 5 arc.

I agree with this, but I would also argue that it wasn't entirely selfless. But really, is there any act that is completely selfless?

I've always seen Buffy's sacrifice as her refusing to lose someone else she cared about. She was done with that. She would rather die than lose Dawn. So part of that sacrifice was something she did for herself.

But I 100% agree about Buffy learning self-sacrifice through Dawn. I just think it happened within the season, not during the finale.

 

[EarthLogic]

Yes, really. I'm speaking of learning deep self-sacrifice in terms of living (and dying) for the sake of another.

Well you could say she'd already learned that way back in 'Prophecy Girl' when she chose to go and face the master knowing she'd die, and in a sense it was for another because she refused to let Giles die in her stead. I do think Dawn completed the journey of learning self-sacrifice, but I wouldn't go as far as saying there was no way she would have done it were it not for Dawn. I can imagine her doing it for Willow too if she had to. Dawn's character, however, fitted the role much better because it was about the unconditional love for a sister. For it to have been Willow, their dynamic in season 5 would have had to change to a more sisterly one for it to fit the theme of the season - which wouldn't be impossible given that the show's relationships are about 'found family', or else the theme would have had to be slightly different to reflect their dynamic.