Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
So, if Angel's motivating factor in doing good is the reward of becoming human, why doesn't he stay human when given the chance? Let's discuss.
Shanshu Prophecy
- Thread starter Joan the Vampire Slayer
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hoponlilmama
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Because he doesn't want the 'win' the easy way. He wants to earn it. The Shanshu isn't even confirmed as actually real.
He chooses to be good and do good as is.
And slightly unrelated, it's one of the reasons why he also decides to destroy the Gem of Amara.
I was reminded of one of the popular quotes from the series. I had to look up the entire exchange because I'm a little rusty on early AtS quotes!
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
He chooses to be good and do good as is.
And slightly unrelated, it's one of the reasons why he also decides to destroy the Gem of Amara.
I was reminded of one of the popular quotes from the series. I had to look up the entire exchange because I'm a little rusty on early AtS quotes!
Angel: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it.
Kate: And now you do?
Angel: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because, I don't think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there's no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I think you're right. He never takes the easy way out, because he likes to torture himself ;)
hoponlilmama
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
He cannot tolerate being weak or mortal. He would not do well as an ordinary man. He would "Riley" even worse than Riley did.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great point.
XanderesqueMan
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I think there are a number of reasons why Angel wouldn't want to become human before the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy. The primary reason he refuses to accept it in "I Will Remember You" is because he realizes that his value, to Buffy and to the world, is greater as a vampire with a soul than it is as a human.
This isn't delusion or ego talking. He's objectively correct. It's possible that, with time, he might have learned to be a great force for the cause of good, but as things stood in that moment, he was weak and unable to provide the support for Buffy or the lost souls that he protects. His body had changed but his mind hadn't, so like someone who injures themself, his mind needed time to catch up and stop acting like he still had his vampiric abilities. He was slower, weaker, and less durable than he had been, and it nearly cost Buffy her life. That was what drove it home for him. Prior to that, he was willing to work through whatever he had to because it was a dream come true, because it meant he could be with her, be happy with her. After that, he found it intolerable to think about living that way.
@hoponlilmama mentioned Angel's refusal to keep the Gem of Amara in "In the Dark," which is another example of him giving up the ability to "live in the daylight" like a normal person, and I think part of his reason here is the same. He explicitly said so, after all. He names the objection to be that he can't be there for the people who need him if he has the ring, not because he's mortal in that case, but because he would be able to (and thus would inevitably) live in their world (the daytime) and would end up neglecting the people who desperately need his help in the dark, when there is no other help. I do think he has a second reason, though it is not stated—that is, the fact that it isn't real. It would allow him to walk among men, to blend among them, to pretend to be one of them, but that would be all it was—pretending. He doesn't want to pretend at being human. He wants to be human.
There's a secondary reason that Angel doesn't accept such loopholes as the Gem of Amara or the Mohra demon blood, in my opinion. That is that he doesn't believe he deserves it. He looks forward to the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy as hope because, when it happens, he'll have earned it, and that will be decided not by him, but by an external force, the Powers That Be. But in the present, he has no illusions that he has, even though by anyone's standards, he has done more for the world than could ever be expected of him. But, as he tells Faith, he believes he may never make up for what he's (Angelus has) done, meaning he can never be forgiven, never deserve a reward for what he's (Angelus has) done.
Angel: The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale.
I also dispute the premise that the reward was his primary reason for doing good. It certainly wasn't to begin with. No, I don't think he does good so he can "become a real boy." I think the idea that someday he might be human again isn't his reason, but rather his motivation, and there is a difference between those two things. I think it's what gives him the hope to keep going, the hope that someday all this pain, all this hardship, all this suffering will end, will be rewarded. His reason is that he wants to help people, wants to make up for Angelus (even though he has no responsibility for that, he feels responsible), but his goalpost, the thing he can focus on to push him through is the reward.
Anyway, those are just my couple of cents, for what they're worth. 🙂
This isn't delusion or ego talking. He's objectively correct. It's possible that, with time, he might have learned to be a great force for the cause of good, but as things stood in that moment, he was weak and unable to provide the support for Buffy or the lost souls that he protects. His body had changed but his mind hadn't, so like someone who injures themself, his mind needed time to catch up and stop acting like he still had his vampiric abilities. He was slower, weaker, and less durable than he had been, and it nearly cost Buffy her life. That was what drove it home for him. Prior to that, he was willing to work through whatever he had to because it was a dream come true, because it meant he could be with her, be happy with her. After that, he found it intolerable to think about living that way.
@hoponlilmama mentioned Angel's refusal to keep the Gem of Amara in "In the Dark," which is another example of him giving up the ability to "live in the daylight" like a normal person, and I think part of his reason here is the same. He explicitly said so, after all. He names the objection to be that he can't be there for the people who need him if he has the ring, not because he's mortal in that case, but because he would be able to (and thus would inevitably) live in their world (the daytime) and would end up neglecting the people who desperately need his help in the dark, when there is no other help. I do think he has a second reason, though it is not stated—that is, the fact that it isn't real. It would allow him to walk among men, to blend among them, to pretend to be one of them, but that would be all it was—pretending. He doesn't want to pretend at being human. He wants to be human.
There's a secondary reason that Angel doesn't accept such loopholes as the Gem of Amara or the Mohra demon blood, in my opinion. That is that he doesn't believe he deserves it. He looks forward to the fulfillment of the Shanshu Prophecy as hope because, when it happens, he'll have earned it, and that will be decided not by him, but by an external force, the Powers That Be. But in the present, he has no illusions that he has, even though by anyone's standards, he has done more for the world than could ever be expected of him. But, as he tells Faith, he believes he may never make up for what he's (Angelus has) done, meaning he can never be forgiven, never deserve a reward for what he's (Angelus has) done.
Angel: The truth is, no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past, you may never balance out the cosmic scale.
I also dispute the premise that the reward was his primary reason for doing good. It certainly wasn't to begin with. No, I don't think he does good so he can "become a real boy." I think the idea that someday he might be human again isn't his reason, but rather his motivation, and there is a difference between those two things. I think it's what gives him the hope to keep going, the hope that someday all this pain, all this hardship, all this suffering will end, will be rewarded. His reason is that he wants to help people, wants to make up for Angelus (even though he has no responsibility for that, he feels responsible), but his goalpost, the thing he can focus on to push him through is the reward.
Anyway, those are just my couple of cents, for what they're worth. 🙂
BuffyElevated
Couldn't agree more! Great post!
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great post, agree!
hoponlilmama
Perfectly said!
BaskingINBangel
Finally! Someone else who "gets" Angel, and his entire motivation. Great post!
XanderesqueMan
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Thanks, Joanie. Britt... Hop-on...? Little Mama? No, that feels weird. 😛
I don't share my rather verbose thoughts for validation, but I'm not going to lie. It's nice to get. 😉 Especially from two of my favorite ladies here... and Hopon. 😛 Sorry. No offense. I just haven't interacted with you much yet. Someday, I'm sure we'll be great friends. Maybe.
Xander: Oh, me and Buffy go way back. Old friends, very close. Then there's that period of estrangement, where I think we both grew as people, but now here we are. It's like old times. I'm quite moved.