Question Fans: what are your thoughts on Joss Whedon now?

[Skanky Vamp]

I thought that 'fangs don't fail me now' was just a sign of how old Mr Trick was. He was referencing something he had seen, either as a vamp or human, back in the 40's. But I admit I wasn't looking for racism, so maybe I just haven't picked up on it before.

It was referencing the old racist minstrel shows, where, when the funny negro would see something that would scare him, his eyes would get overly large and he would exclaim "feets don't fail me now" before he comically ran away. For example, if he saw he saw laundry hanging out to dry he would exclaim it was a ghost, shout the famous/infamous line and run away cowering in the corner until the white lead would coax him out showing it was nothing to be afraid of.

The mannerisms in which the Mr. Trick line was delivered and how it was performed was very much stereotypical of those types of shows. I instantly thought that, even upon first viewing, and see it everytime since. It is too similar to be a coincidence, IMHO.

 

[Btvs fan]

It was referencing the old racist minstrel shows, where, when the funny negro would see something that would scare him, his eyes would get overly large and he would exclaim "feets don't fail me now" before he comically ran away. For example, if he saw he saw laundry hanging out to dry he would exclaim it was a ghost, shout the famous/infamous line and run away cowering in the corner until the white lead would coax him out showing it was nothing to be afraid of.

The mannerisms in which the Mr. Trick line was delivered and how it was performed was very much stereotypical of those types of shows. I instantly thought that, even upon first viewing, and see it everytime since. It is too similar to be a coincidence, IMHO.

I always thought it strange that the good guys such as Mal (Brown Coats) in Firefly were based on Ex Confederates after the US Civil War. The obvious Slavery point kind of being missed by Joss.

Then there was Get it Done where white Buffy was chained up by evil black men trying infect her with demon black mist in an obvious rape metaphor

 

[M]

I always thought it strange that the good guys such as Mal (Brown Coats) in Firefly were based on Ex Confederates after the US Civil War. The obvious Slavery point kind of being missed by Joss.

Then there was Get it Done where white Buffy was chained up by evil black men trying infect her with demon black mist in an obvious rape metaphor

I can't comment on Firefly, as I have yet to see it, but rape and rape metaphors were used throughout the series, and more often with white characters (Xander in "The Pack", Willow to Tara, Warren, Spike etc.). To my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong), this was the only time a character of color did anything remotely suggesting rape. So, I don't know if this particular example can really be held as an example of his racism, but rather his frequent use of rape and rape metaphors.

However, and I have said this before, it's difficult for me to feel shaken by the use of rape in Buffy, as many shows I've seen since Buffy really do that concept to death, and Buffy seems really tame by comparison. Of course, I arrived late to Buffy, so maybe it really did feel extreme in the late '90s/early aughts, but compared to a show like Game of Thrones, Buffy treats the subject somewhat sensitively, and way more infrequently than our more recent shows.

Don't get me wrong. Joss isn't a saint, but I just think his behind the scenes behavior may be tainting our judgement of his past work a bit.

 

[Btvs fan]

@Spanky I think you're mistaken about that line as I am others can't find that line anywhere. Are you sure it was Trick ?

 

[darkspook]

I think for sure he believes he is a genius in the room. He allowed himself and only him to experiment with the medium on Buffy (Hush no dialogue, The body no supernatural, musical episode etc). He also picked favourites in the cast and would lean his writing towards them (Alyson was pushed forward from season onwards while Nicky became an extra). He is talented but not the god became make him out to be.
What I find telling about all of the news, stories and bad press is that none of his previous cast from Buffy, Angel, Firefly etc are leaping towards his defence ala James Gunn style. All are pretty silent on the subject I haven't seen anyone come out in support of his... not a great sign.

 

[Btvs fan]

I think for sure he believes he is a genius in the room. He allowed himself and only him to experiment with the medium on Buffy (Hush no dialogue, The body no supernatural, musical episode etc). He also picked favourites in the cast and would lean his writing towards them (Alyson was pushed forward from season onwards while Nicky became an extra). He is talented but not the god became make him out to be.
What I find telling about all of the news, stories and bad press is that none of his previous cast from Buffy, Angel, Firefly etc are leaping towards his defence ala James Gunn style. All are pretty silent on the subject I haven't seen anyone come out in support of his... not a great sign.

Alan Tudyk came out for him over the Ray Fisher stuff but admitted he wasn't there but that's pretty much it. Even Amy Acker and Mr and Mrs Denisof who are known to be close with JW have been silent. Though that might be because AH and AA are 2 suspected for those of the affairs his wife talked about.
JW has long had a beef with SMG, on the Firefly DVD commentary he refers to Cranky S7 TV stars ie he means her so I doubt she'd ever back him.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

What I find telling about all of the news, stories and bad press is that none of his previous cast from Buffy, Angel, Firefly etc are leaping towards his defence ala James Gunn style.

There's a difference between the two. The Guardians of the galaxy cast were in a happy working relationship with James Gunn at the time of his firing. The cast of Buffy/Angel and Firefly hadn't worked with Joss for 16 years.

Alan Tudyk came out for him over the Ray Fisher stuff but admitted he wasn't there but that's pretty much it. Even Amy Acker and Mr and Mrs Denisof who are known to be close with JW have been silent.

And they're all white and would've been accused of "white privilege" by the woke mob if they stuck their head above the parapet and basically said that Fisher was lying. Turdyk as a "straight white male" would've had the SJWs attacking him because of his colour, gender and sexuality and would've been treated as dirt for daring to say that Fisher was exaggerating. SJWs are all about assigning value to people and opinions based on genetic traits: black, female and LGBT (particularly trans) are all prized traits for the SJWs, so Turdyk would be considered the lowest of the low because he's white, straight and male. We've seen this kind of mentality before in the past and it didn't end well.

Though that might be because AH and AA are 2 suspected for those of the affairs his wife talked about.

I don't think AH was ever involved with Joss sexually. She and AD are godparents to Joss' kids, he wouldn't have asked her to do that if he'd been sleeping her, plus with AD on Angel, it would've been too much on home turf for Joss.

AA is possible, though I always thought Harmony's actress was a possibility since she was made part of the main cast in Angel Season 5 which is when Joss was more hands on with Angel.

 

[darkspook]

There's a difference between the two. The Guardians of the galaxy cast were in a happy working relationship with James Gunn at the time of his firing. The cast of Buffy/Angel and Firefly hadn't worked with Joss for 16 years.

While I accept that these people haven't worked with Joss for 16 years they still could have put a 'he was professional and hard working with us' post. The guardians cast went on record saying they would not be happy or even make a 3rd film without Gunn risking the wrath of Disney and most of Hollywood. Yet few have come out and said that Joss was solid, professional during their days of working with him. I mean that would only help Joss these days in this matter but no silence...

 

[sk]

Fran Kranz from Dollhouse recently tweeted about how great his experience was working with Joss.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1335337503528644608

/SK

 

[Btvs fan]

There's a difference between the two. The Guardians of the galaxy cast were in a happy working relationship with James Gunn at the time of his firing. The cast of Buffy/Angel and Firefly hadn't worked with Joss for 16 years.



And they're all white and would've been accused of "white privilege" by the woke mob if they stuck their head above the parapet and basically said that Fisher was lying. Turdyk as a "straight white male" would've had the SJWs attacking him because of his colour, gender and sexuality and would've been treated as dirt for daring to say that Fisher was exaggerating. SJWs are all about assigning value to people and opinions based on genetic traits: black, female and LGBT (particularly trans) are all prized traits for the SJWs, so Turdyk would be considered the lowest of the low because he's white, straight and male. We've seen this kind of mentality before in the past and it didn't end well.



I don't think AH was ever involved with Joss sexually. She and AD are godparents to Joss' kids, he wouldn't have asked her to do that if he'd been sleeping her, plus with AD on Angel, it would've been too much on home turf for Joss.

AA is possible, though I always thought Harmony's actress was a possibility since she was made part of the main cast in Angel Season 5 which is when Joss was more hands on with Angel.

From what I've heard the AH affair was early in the series and long over by the time she dated AD. Don't forget Kais complaint was he often had them over to his house to flaunt in front of his ex wife, so he could've made her a God parent. Like with Michael and his brother in law its Good cover

 

[thrasherpix]

Eliza Dushku reported on a horrible experience that involved some sort of sexual assault and what appeared to have been a murder attempt (given that he was involved with the malfunction, I don't think it was a coincidence), and though the parents were assured he was fired (but the parents didn't press charges for some reason), Eliza later found out he'd been transferred and was still in the industry and so she shared about it all these years later.

What has she shared of Joss Whedon?

 

[Synch]

There's a difference between the two. The Guardians of the galaxy cast were in a happy working relationship with James Gunn at the time of his firing. The cast of Buffy/Angel and Firefly hadn't worked with Joss for 16 years.

Denisof, Day, Acker, Richards, Fillion, Tudyk, Glau etc They all worked again with him. Same with Buffy/Angel/Firefly writers.

 

[Btvs fan]

Eliza Dushku reported on a horrible experience that involved some sort of sexual assault and what appeared to have been a murder attempt (given that he was involved with the malfunction, I don't think it was a coincidence), and though the parents were assured he was fired (but the parents didn't press charges for some reason), Eliza later found out he'd been transferred and was still in the industry and so she shared about it all these years later.

What has she shared of Joss Whedon?

Joss and her are rumoured and suspected of having an affair but it was consentual and she was an adult not a 13 yr old as she was on the True Lies set.
For that James Cameron looks very dodgy. He says he didn't know yet a representative says when she brought it up at the time about the stunt guy, the person sounded like he'd heard it all before. She doesn't name the person she went to but it must have been Cameron.

 

[darkspook]

Denisof, Day, Acker, Richards, Fillion, Tudyk, Glau etc They all worked again with him. Same with Buffy/Angel/Firefly writers.

Sorry just googled some of their names and Joss's and not found any mentioned shows of support. Maybe they aren't covered highly in the press.

 

[Faded90]

I can still enjoy Buffy, Angel I’ve only ever found solid at best (with a few very good episodes). I won’t go into the darker accusations against Joss but I suspect he’s a bit of a douchebag and he’s nowhere near as feminist as he claims. A show that paints our female main character as being at fault for her boyfriend cheating on her because she didn’t love him right is a big head scratching.

Even though I love CWDP and the Buffy/Holden scenes are the best of the episode I just don’t buy that Buffy has a genuine superiority complex (and remember these scenes were written purely by Joss). A headstrong, confident female who yes is admittedly insanely stubborn now apparently has a ‘superiority complex’. This has always irked me to be honest, I know it’s a little thing and it’s supposed to foreshadow General Buffy but I just don’t buy it

 

[darkspook]

I can still enjoy Buffy, Angel I’ve only ever found solid at best (with a few very good episodes). I won’t go into the darker accusations against Joss but I suspect he’s a bit of a douchebag and he’s nowhere near as feminist as he claims. A show that paints our female main character as being at fault for her boyfriend cheating on her because she didn’t love him right is a big head scratching.

Even though I love CWDP and the Buffy/Holden scenes are the best of the episode I just don’t buy that Buffy has a genuine superiority complex (and remember these scenes were written purely by Joss). A headstrong, confident female who yes is admittedly insanely stubborn now apparently has a ‘superiority complex’. This has always irked me to be honest, I know it’s a little thing and it’s supposed to foreshadow General Buffy but I just don’t buy it

I think that Joss had a love/hate with his work. This is after all a man who has stated that Spike is his most developed character and yet still shoved James Masters against a wall threatening to write him out of the show.

 

[Faded90]

I think that Joss had a love/hate with his work. This is after all a man who has stated that Spike is his most developed character and yet still shoved James Masters against a wall threatening to write him out of the show.

I think there’s probably a middle ground between what both Joss and James have said 😂 I don’t really buy James’ ‘Joss hates Spike’ when Spike gets a HUGE arc (for me to the detriment of Buffy’s character) and his role almost takes precedence in S7 and then gets second billing in Angel despite it being clear there wasn’t really a role for his character throughout S5. I think Joss probably did feel irritated when Spike became The Fonzie of the show but I don’t think he hated his character as much as James thinks. Of course James’ knows more than me though so just my opinion on the basic facts 😂

 

[M]

I think there’s probably a middle ground between what both Joss and James have said 😂 I don’t really buy James’ ‘Joss hates Spike’ when Spike gets a HUGE arc (for me to the detriment of Buffy’s character) and his role almost takes precedence in S7 and then gets second billing in Angel despite it being clear there wasn’t really a role for his character throughout S5. I think Joss probably did feel irritated when Spike became The Fonzie of the show but I don’t think he hated his character as much as James thinks. Of course James’ knows more than me though so just my opinion on the basic facts 😂

I always kind of got the impression that maybe Joss felt bad after the incident. As much of a twit I think he is, I reckon he's not all bad. Tempers do sometimes run high on creative endeavors, and I'm guessing Joss doesn't like to have his authority challenged. Plus, the other cast members James has said that in front of don't really react like that was entirely outside the realm of possibility. It's also worth noting that James also does usually have many good things to say about Joss, in spite of that story.

 

[Faded90]

I always kind of got the impression that maybe Joss felt bad after the incident. As much of a twit I think he is, I reckon he's not all bad. Tempers do sometimes run high on creative endeavors, and I'm guessing Joss doesn't like to have his authority challenged. Plus, the other cast members James has said that in front of don't really react like that was entirely outside the realm of possibility. It's also worth noting that James also does usually have many good things to say about Joss, in spite of that story.

Yeah that’s true, headlines always pick out the bad anyway 😂

 

[Synch]

I can say many of The Nevers cast are in a very good terms with Joss. With a genuine friendship with at least some of them.