hoponlilmama
Scooby
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Ranks alongside Something Blue as one of the funniest episodes. It's not all laughs, of course, but that's the part I choose to focus on.
Rewatching this now and…what exactly was Willow’s plan with casting the spell on Buffy?
If Buffy forgot she was in heaven, the gang would have blamed Willow, especially after her fight with Tara the night before. Tara would have gotten upset and left her for breaking her promise to do no magic for a week, and for messing with Buffy’s mind. Giles would have been furious too. So yeah, it wouldn’t have gone over very well.
Is this kind of a plot hole?
So the musical was a leftover idea? I suppose it was in a way, since it was the only desirable creative opportunity left for Whedon as an auteur.I think this episode and the previous one were simply leftover ideas that were shoehorned into the season without anything remotely resembling thinking, especially as both were promptly ignored after they were over.
So the musical was a leftover idea? I suppose it was in a way, since it was the only desirable creative opportunity left for Whedon as an auteur.
Just rewatched the clip of Willow's spell to clarify. She included only Buffy and Tara in her incantation for memory loss, but even if their memories were altered, the rest of the gang would still react badly and Willow would be exposed. There were simply too many witnesses to Buffy's confession during "Once More with Feeling" and her fight with Tara the night before. So still not sure how Willow thought she could get away with wiping their minds without any repercussions.
I don't think that's true at all. Spike and Buffy do talk about the kiss at the end later, Anya and Xander's duet foreshadows "Hell's Bells," Dawn is shown stealing from the Magic Box and does get caught later, Giles makes his decision to leave during this episode, we get a flashback to OMWF later with a new Anya solo... this thread is literally for an episode in which the plot revolves around the reaction to a specific moment in OMWF, Tara realizing that Willow had cast a spell on her. The only thing that was actually left unresolved in this episode is the fact that Xander summoned the demon on purpose. All of the relevant plot information does continue to matter, though.All the events of OMWF were completely ignored by the series anyway
I don't think that's true at all. Spike and Buffy do talk about the kiss at the end later, Anya and Xander's duet foreshadows "Hell's Bells," Dawn is shown stealing from the Magic Box and does get caught later, Giles makes his decision to leave during this episode, we get a flashback to OMWF later with a new Anya solo... this thread is literally for an episode in which the plot revolves around the reaction to a specific moment in OMWF, Tara realizing that Willow had cast a spell on her. The only thing that was actually left unresolved in this episode is the fact that Xander summoned the demon on purpose. All of the relevant plot information does continue to matter, though.
Yes, because talking about it is uncomfortable and, from a writing standpoint, creates drama. The problems were already there, OMWF is the first time it is pointed out to the audience that these problems are going to be an issue. It's the start of their arc in this season, of course they can't just talk it out immediately.Anya and Xander realised they had problems they needed to talk about and ignored it.
That's... literally the opposite of what happens in this episode. "Standing" is entirely about how he needs to stop sheltering Buffy so that she can grow as a person. I don't like that Giles leaves; it's an incredibly stupid writing move that was forced by the fact that Head wanted to return to England. But it's blatantly false to say that Giles "realized how much he was needed" when specifically talking about what happens in OMWF. He realized that Buffy was relying on him too much* and he wanted her to be able to stand on her own, so he leaves. He makes this decision in OMWF and it is a decision that does have lasting repercussions in the rest of the series.Giles realised how much he was needed and ignored it.
I don't see how this is supposed to be a rebuttal to my argument that that the events of OMWF are relevant to the rest of the series. If anything, it proves it. The kiss at the end of this episode is the start of the Spuffy relationship, or at least the start of there being a romantic and/or sexual aspect to that relationship. You originally said that the events of OMWF are "ignored by the series," but you admit yourself that the Spuffy relationship, which begins in this episode, continues to influence Buffy as a character until the final episode.Buffy wasn't able to break free of her abuser until he literally went up in smoke.
You're right. She makes effort to avoid them. Which she faces consequences for, such as her girlfriend leaving her.Willow didn't make any effort to deal with her issues.
The characters ignoring things and the series ignoring things are two different ideas entirely. All of the major character arcs this season somewhat revolve around a refusal to acknowledge things, and the fact that things often go badly as a result of that is literally an example of the show taking advantage of what was already shown to the audience. If Xander and Anya talk things out, then they either have a breakup that is kind of sad and awkward, or they post-pone the wedding because Xander admits he isn't ready. "Hell's Bells" is a dramatic episode that only works because Xander has refused to face these insecurities, so the audience has to actually know that he has them. If Willow and Tara talk things out and Willow doesn't cast the memory spell on Tara, they never break up and Willow never has to actually learn not to rely on magic, since she apparently gets it right after a couple of conversations. The Dark Willow arc doesn't work if Willow listens to Tara's concerns about magic from the start, because then it comes out of nowhere. Yes, OMWF is all about characters revealing things they haven't wanted to talk about, but the reasons why they don't talk about it fuel a lot of the drama of the season (for better and for worse--even as someone who really likes season six, I can admit that the quality of the writing is wildly inconsistent).Buffy said they needed to come together as a family and they ignored it. That's what I mean by ignored. Every revelation the characters had was totally ignored. Nobody learned a thing.
I disagree. They're really important for communicating to the audience what issues the characters are trying to avoid dealing with. And, as established, these episodes do have really important plot points in them: why Giles leaves, why Tara breaks up with Willow, and the start of the Spuffy relationship. These things set in motion a ton of the plot for this season. They had to happen somewhere or the rest of the plot has to change, and they happened to happen in OMWF and Tabula Rasa.You can remove both episodes without changing the season at all.
Agree to disagree on this. I think it's more accurate to say that it changed than to say it died, and a lot of people like how different season six is.OMWF was where the season could have been turned around and returned to being Buffy. Instead, that and this episode are where the series well and truly died.
Yes. Agree to disagree. S6 is the worst season of Buffy. A lot of people despise how different S6 is.Agree to disagree on this. I think it's more accurate to say that it changed than to say it died, and a lot of people like how different season six is.
That's... literally the opposite of what happens in this episode. "Standing" is entirely about how he needs to stop sheltering Buffy so that she can grow as a person. I don't like that Giles leaves; it's an incredibly stupid writing move that was forced by the fact that Head wanted to return to England. But it's blatantly false to say that Giles "realized how much he was needed" when specifically talking about what happens in OMWF. He realized that Buffy was relying on him too much* and he wanted her to be able to stand on her own, so he leaves. He makes this decision in OMWF and it is a decision that does have lasting repercussions in the rest of the series.
Yes, because talking about it is uncomfortable and, from a writing standpoint, creates drama. The problems were already there, OMWF is the first time it is pointed out to the audience that these problems are going to be an issue. It's the start of their arc in this season, of course they can't just talk it out immediately.
That's... literally the opposite of what happens in this episode. "Standing" is entirely about how he needs to stop sheltering Buffy so that she can grow as a person. I don't like that Giles leaves; it's an incredibly stupid writing move that was forced by the fact that Head wanted to return to England. But it's blatantly false to say that Giles "realized how much he was needed" when specifically talking about what happens in OMWF. He realized that Buffy was relying on him too much* and he wanted her to be able to stand on her own, so he leaves. He makes this decision in OMWF and it is a decision that does have lasting repercussions in the rest of the series.
*Again, I agree with the common consensus that Giles leaving in season six is incredibly forced and that it's absurd to act like Buffy was being lazy or putting too many of her responsibilities on Giles. She did not do that, anyone with eyes can see she did not do that, but the show is telling us that she did and that this is why Giles leaves.
I don't see how this is supposed to be a rebuttal to my argument that that the events of OMWF are relevant to the rest of the series. If anything, it proves it. The kiss at the end of this episode is the start of the Spuffy relationship, or at least the start of there being a romantic and/or sexual aspect to that relationship. You originally said that the events of OMWF are "ignored by the series," but you admit yourself that the Spuffy relationship, which begins in this episode, continues to influence Buffy as a character until the final episode.
You're right. She makes effort to avoid them. Which she faces consequences for, such as her girlfriend leaving her.
The characters ignoring things and the series ignoring things are two different ideas entirely. All of the major character arcs this season somewhat revolve around a refusal to acknowledge things, and the fact that things often go badly as a result of that is literally an example of the show taking advantage of what was already shown to the audience. If Xander and Anya talk things out, then they either have a breakup that is kind of sad and awkward, or they post-pone the wedding because Xander admits he isn't ready. "Hell's Bells" is a dramatic episode that only works because Xander has refused to face these insecurities, so the audience has to actually know that he has them. If Willow and Tara talk things out and Willow doesn't cast the memory spell on Tara, they never break up and Willow never has to actually learn not to rely on magic, since she apparently gets it right after a couple of conversations. The Dark Willow arc doesn't work if Willow listens to Tara's concerns about magic from the start, because then it comes out of nowhere. Yes, OMWF is all about characters revealing things they haven't wanted to talk about, but the reasons why they don't talk about it fuel a lot of the drama of the season (for better and for worse--even as someone who really likes season six, I can admit that the quality of the writing is wildly inconsistent).
It's not as accurate to say "Nobody learned a thing." It's more like "Everyone is learning things they don't like knowing about and wish they could stop knowing." Of course they can't learn every lesson that makes things work out okay. We're not even halfway through the season.
I disagree. They're really important for communicating to the audience what issues the characters are trying to avoid dealing with. And, as established, these episodes do have really important plot points in them: why Giles leaves, why Tara breaks up with Willow, and the start of the Spuffy relationship. These things set in motion a ton of the plot for this season. They had to happen somewhere or the rest of the plot has to change, and they happened to happen in OMWF and Tabula Rasa.
Tabula Rasa is also one of the last truly lighthearted episodes and I think that's important for pacing purposes as well.
Agree to disagree on this. I think it's more accurate to say that it changed than to say it died, and a lot of people like how different season six is.
I agree that Giles leaving is handled incredibly poorly. My point wasn't that "Standing" is a great explanation for Giles leaving, just that it is the explanation we are given, which is better than no explanation at all. They at least tried to make Giles leaving a significant plot point rather than just writing him out between seasons. That doesn't mean the effort was very good, but it's important to make note of, in my opinion.The thing with that is, 'Standing' came before Buffy's big reveal that she was in heaven and now "lives in hell". There's a difference between wanting someone to stand on their own, and then telling someone to 'stand alone' when you discover they're depressed and suicidal.
Buffy pleads with him after to stay:
GILES: I've taught you all I can about being a slayer, and your mother taught you what you needed to know about life. You ... you're not gonna trust that until you're forced to stand alone.
BUFFY: But why now? Now that you know where I've been, what I'm going through?
GILES: Now more than ever. The temptation to give up is gonna be overwhelming, and I can't let-
BUFFY: So I won't! No giving up. You can be here, and I can still be strong.
The writers really fumbled this one. A better excuse for Giles leaving should've been made - some great ideas were offered up here on the forum. I think that's what NotASlayer means by Giles ignoring how much he was needed. Not only for Buffy - but leaving Willow who he can see is heading down a dangerous path with magic.
I still entirely disagree with this. There are plot points that set in motion a lot of the rest of season six, as I've said; I would agree if your point is that these plot points didn't have to happen in a musical, but they still had to happen somewhere. OMWF could be replaced, but not removed. Same with "Tabula Rasa." Same with most episodes where the MotW is a plot device to reveal something about the characters or the world. Why did it have to be a musical? Why did it have to be amnesia? Why did it have to be this monster, or that monster? Because the writers thought it would be cool. The fact that the premise is somewhat arbitrary doesn't mean that the episode isn't important to the plot.Maybe they showed the audience the problems, but neither episode had any effect on the events of the series. Everything would have still turned out just the way they did without either episode. Events happened despite OMWF, not because of it. That's why it can be removed.
I can agree that the actual circumstances of the episode are horrifying and have far reaching implications and also find the actual script of the episode to be funny. I don't think it's impossible for something to be both upsetting and also comedic.I find it anything but lighthearted, thanks to the awfulness of the season. Willow, after mind raping and actually raping Tara, decides to mindrape Tara again and this time throws in an attempt to mindrape Buffy as well. And accidentally mindrapes everyone. Anything but hilarious.
I agree that from this point on it is different. I disagree with the idea that the show "died." You said that the ways the show changed mean that it is no longer Buffy:You seem to agree with me? I said that Buffy died because it stopped being what it was, and you say it stopped being what it was and that's why people like it.
The idea that the show needed to "return to being Buffy" implies that it has become something else entirely. That it died and was replaced. I do not agree with this. It would be blatantly incorrect to act like season six is no different from the seasons that came before, but I don't think it's so different that it stops being Buffy the Vampire Slayer.OMWF was where the season could have been turned around and returned to being Buffy.
Huge agree with all of this.And @hoponlilmama is right. OMWF showed that Giles left Buffy, despite knowing she was seriously depressed - and abandoning someone in that state is not letting them "stand on their own"; it's cruelly leaving them to suffer. Giles, once he knew there were serious problems, not just minor issues, should have stayed. And with Willow, not only did Giles know she had problems, and was worried about them, abandoned her as well, despite literally knowing people who could help her. It can rightly be argued that everything that went wrong with Willow from this point was Giles's fault.
I agree that Giles leaving is handled incredibly poorly. My point wasn't that "Standing" is a great explanation for Giles leaving, just that it is the explanation we are given, which is better than no explanation at all. They at least tried to make Giles leaving a significant plot point rather than just writing him out between seasons. That doesn't mean the effort was very good, but it's important to make note of, in my opinion.
If there's ever a point where the show dies and stops truly being Buffy the Vampire Slayer as we've known it, I would argue that it's when season seven introduces souled Spike who acts exactly the same and then pretty quickly abandons any MotW style episodes in favor of the Potential-themed soap opera. Completely undoing the lore up to this point and then wandering around through the same episode for hours on end...
I'm not going to try and convince you that you should find it funny, but I would like to rephrase my actual argument to say that "Tabula Rasa" is the episode most clearly intended to be comedic relief.
If there's ever a point where the show dies and stops truly being Buffy the Vampire Slayer as we've known it, I would argue that it's when season seven introduces souled Spike who acts exactly the same and then pretty quickly abandons any MotW style episodes in favor of the Potential-themed soap opera. Completely undoing the lore up to this point and then wandering around through the same episode for hours on end... as inconsistent as season six was, at least most of the episodes actually have their own semi-contained plot.
S7 might be where Buffy died, but, S6 is where Buffy fell off a cliff. There is no example of a successful TV show, and, at the end of S5, Buffy was very successful, making the kinds of changes in story-telling and tone and characterization that S6 did and remaining popular with its audience (Normally you see radical changes when a show is failing and there is nothing to lose).
Why?
Because radical changes cause the current audience to quickly stop watching while it takes a two to three seasons to build up a new audience that can replace the old audience.
At the time S6 was very unpopular. It proved Whedon wrong about the posting boards being a better marker of audience position than ratings analysis and market research. More Arrogant and Stupid than Bold.
So, S6 is where Buffy broke down, even though, there is a large, and growing, part of the modern audience that absolutely adores it.