Discussion of 5.22 "Not Fade Away" - Aired 5/19/2004 (WB-US)
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Hale Caesar
Sunnydale Nerd
Great episode. It really summarizes Angel's mission statement : you got to keep fighting even when the odds are against you
And, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Wesley! Why did they have to kill you 🙁
And, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Wesley! Why did they have to kill you 🙁
Goby
Brb, shipping Snoyce
We just had a long conversation in another thread.
To summarize..... Best Angel Episode ever!
To summarize..... Best Angel Episode ever!
K
Konoe
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AmazingMrCross
The one who sees
Wesley's death scene was one of the saddest, most well-done deaths in either Buffy or Angel. You've got Illyria learning to feel and love, comforting Wesley in his final moments with a great lie. It's made even sadder with the realization that Fred's soul has been obliterated, so that line "Then you'll be where I am" makes me choke up a little. I've read debates where people wondered if Fredlyria's tears were genuine... I think that they were!
And then Vail gets up and thinks 'Fred' is just an ordinary, enraged mortal. "Take your best shot, little girl..." And oh man, she really does.
And then Vail gets up and thinks 'Fred' is just an ordinary, enraged mortal. "Take your best shot, little girl..." And oh man, she really does.
The best line in this episode was Angel saying to Lindsey ''I want you'' 🙂
I liked that Angel spent his last day with Connor and that Connor told him he knew who he was. That was very sweet. Also Gunn's conversation with Anne reminds me of Buffy's conversation with Angel in the season 3 episode Gingerbread, when Angel explains that evil always wins but good fights because their are things worth saving. I think its a good message, because if we just let evil win then really were no better than evil. I loved that Spike went reading poetry!
I cant believe that Angel gave up his chance for being human! I also cant believe Harmony. I didnt see that coming but I guess I should have. She's a vampire without a chip or a soul. I was also shocked at Lorne killing Lindsey. I loved that Connor came and saved Angel. I was so upset at the Fred/Wes scene. It was heartbreaking.
I think the ending was fitting. I would have liked Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies to show up though at the end to help them fight.
I've listened to the commentary by Jeffrey Bell.
The plot was simply because they wanted to clear up as much of the backstories as they could. Andie has an absess while shooting this episode and could barely stand up.
They dont make a big deal of some important things, like Angel signing away his Shansu. Its been the main focus of the last 4 years and he signs it away so casually. Joss wanted the scene to have the tone of Angel signing his soul away.
The relationship with Harmony and Angel has never been explored. The scene were they bond about being human is to set up her betrayal later on.
The Lindsey scenes were shot a month and a half before they shot the rest of the episode.
They wanted to show how the characters would spend the last day. Lorne singing was a given, they originally wanted the song to be Over The Rainbow but the If I Ruled The World fit his character at that moment in time. The poem is a call back to the episode of Fool For Love and gives Spike the reaction from the audience that he wanted. They realised that Connor was the most apropriate person for Angel to go and see since Cordy had died (the bangle in me did not like that comment 🙂). Eve develops from not caring at the start of the show to caring a lot and giving up everything.
The Spike comment about the amulet was for all the Buffy fans. Harmony is purposely dressed in pink. Andy didnt like shooting the gun. Lorne went from being the nice fun character to being so sad. It was clear that not everyone was going to make it. They chose Wesley for the emotion. His death scene was the last one Alexis filmed.
The alley is the same alley that Angel fought Faith in.
The ending is not meant to be a cliff hanger ending, the point isnt whether they win or lose, its the fact that they will always be fighting.
The dragon was similar to the dragon from Buffy.
I liked that Angel spent his last day with Connor and that Connor told him he knew who he was. That was very sweet. Also Gunn's conversation with Anne reminds me of Buffy's conversation with Angel in the season 3 episode Gingerbread, when Angel explains that evil always wins but good fights because their are things worth saving. I think its a good message, because if we just let evil win then really were no better than evil. I loved that Spike went reading poetry!
I cant believe that Angel gave up his chance for being human! I also cant believe Harmony. I didnt see that coming but I guess I should have. She's a vampire without a chip or a soul. I was also shocked at Lorne killing Lindsey. I loved that Connor came and saved Angel. I was so upset at the Fred/Wes scene. It was heartbreaking.
I think the ending was fitting. I would have liked Buffy, Faith and the Scoobies to show up though at the end to help them fight.
I've listened to the commentary by Jeffrey Bell.
The plot was simply because they wanted to clear up as much of the backstories as they could. Andie has an absess while shooting this episode and could barely stand up.
They dont make a big deal of some important things, like Angel signing away his Shansu. Its been the main focus of the last 4 years and he signs it away so casually. Joss wanted the scene to have the tone of Angel signing his soul away.
The relationship with Harmony and Angel has never been explored. The scene were they bond about being human is to set up her betrayal later on.
The Lindsey scenes were shot a month and a half before they shot the rest of the episode.
They wanted to show how the characters would spend the last day. Lorne singing was a given, they originally wanted the song to be Over The Rainbow but the If I Ruled The World fit his character at that moment in time. The poem is a call back to the episode of Fool For Love and gives Spike the reaction from the audience that he wanted. They realised that Connor was the most apropriate person for Angel to go and see since Cordy had died (the bangle in me did not like that comment 🙂). Eve develops from not caring at the start of the show to caring a lot and giving up everything.
The Spike comment about the amulet was for all the Buffy fans. Harmony is purposely dressed in pink. Andy didnt like shooting the gun. Lorne went from being the nice fun character to being so sad. It was clear that not everyone was going to make it. They chose Wesley for the emotion. His death scene was the last one Alexis filmed.
The alley is the same alley that Angel fought Faith in.
The ending is not meant to be a cliff hanger ending, the point isnt whether they win or lose, its the fact that they will always be fighting.
The dragon was similar to the dragon from Buffy.
K
kittenpoker
AWESOME information! thanks jules!
Ethan Reigns
Watch carefully where Angel signs away the Shanshu - he signs "Anger" instead of "Angel".
kittenpoker
Raising penguins in Guam
I LOVE this episode!!!! So much!!!!!
Connor - you come to have coffee with me and the world's not ending?
Angel and Harmony's exchange where she tells him it's because she has no confidence in her and he says no it's because she has no soul to which she retorts, "well I would if you had any confidence in me!"
Illyria kicks major ass here - I wish to do more violence
and the illyria/fred and wes scene is absolutely heartbreaking - but awesome as fred transforms into illyria with that punch through the head (reminds me of connor's punch to jasmine)
I love the way they all spend their last nights
Connor - you come to have coffee with me and the world's not ending?
Angel and Harmony's exchange where she tells him it's because she has no confidence in her and he says no it's because she has no soul to which she retorts, "well I would if you had any confidence in me!"
Illyria kicks major ass here - I wish to do more violence
and the illyria/fred and wes scene is absolutely heartbreaking - but awesome as fred transforms into illyria with that punch through the head (reminds me of connor's punch to jasmine)
I love the way they all spend their last nights
Goby
I love it too, possibly more than any other episode in the Whedonverse. It's that good!!!
white avenger
white avenger
I hate cliffhangers (and I don't care WHAT Joss says, THAT WAS A CLIFFHANGER!). I can tolerate them to some extent from one episode to the next, or even, if absolutely necessary, from the end of one season to the beginning of the next. But for Joss to intentionally end Season 5 knowing that there would be no Season 6 was cruel and inconsiderate to the fans who have been faithful to him since "Welcome To The Hellmouth" and "City Of Angels." I can admit and freely allow that there were just too many issues in play at that time to settle each and every one of them, but the show could have ended on a more hopeful note that three warriors facing off against an entire army.
Hale Caesar
Sunnydale Nerd
How did you want the show to end? With Angel becoming human and skipping into the sunset? And you shouldn't speak for all fans. I thought this episode is one of the best moments in the entire Buffyverse
The whole point of Angel is that he will never stop fighting because there is always someone who needs saving or something worth fighting for. He will always be trying to redeem himself. For him to have a "happily ever after" endng is just stupid and that would be an insult to the fans
white avenger
white avenger
No, I wouldn't expect the series to have ended with all of the loose ends tied up in a nice, neat package, and I certainly wouldn't expect Angel to be "skipping off" anywhere. The battle goes on, Evil never rests, and it's the mission that counts. I get all of that. The same thing could be said for the finale of "Buffy." Same idea of the unending battle, same restatement of the all important mission, and the same idea of the eternal struggle. But "Chosen" ended on a hopeful note. Their victory was at best temporary, and everyone knew it. There was even a whole new hell mouth just waiting to be patrolled. But they had fought their battle, lost their soldiers, and had earned at least a moment's rest. I would have been just as angry if "Chosen" had ended just when Buffy and her little army first engaged the ubervamps.
What it all comes down to is that I hate cliffhangers, especially the kind that end on a note of near hopelessness and I saw the finale of "Angel" as exactly that.
,
SMG14Fan
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Hale Caesar
Sunnydale Nerd
But you didn't answer my question. How did you want the show to end? You started off explaining and then started to talk about Buffy and "Chosen"
There was no other way to end the show that would do it the justice it deserved. You can't make him human or give him his life with Buffy because he still needs to help others. "Not Fade Away" is basically the perfect ending for Angel, it's saying, "the fight against evil never ends and this character will always be pursuing that goal because that's who he's been since the we first saw him". I can't imagine a more beautiful statement being made.
Are you mad because you wanted to see Angel fight the army? I mean, when someone says "Not Fade Away" was a cliffhanger it usually means they didn't understand the message of the episode and just wanted to see a big fight
Goby
Brb, shipping Snoyce
To me there was no cliffhanger. They all died fighting the good fight.
In one of the interviews on the DVD of an overview of Season 5 Joss says that Gunn dies shortly after the battle starts 🙂
I think in the long run your never going to please every single fan. I think Joss took two possible out comes and played one on each show in a hopes of pleasing fans. In Buffy you get the ending that ties everything up, good vs evil and good wins. In Angel you get the message that the battle isnt over and the warriors always have to keep on fighting.
I personally like the Buffy ending, I dont like having to pick for myself what's shown after the final scene. Saying that I dont hate the ending of Angel, while I'm frustrated with it I can see were Joss is coming from.
white avenger
white avenger
See, that's my point. Them all dying in the battle, as much as I would NOT have liked that, would have at least been a conclusion, or at least a break in the action. A better ending, in my opinion, would have been to have Angel and his team destroy the Circle Of The Black Thorn, then let it end there. Sure, the Senior Partners are gonna be P O'ed at Angel, and they are most certainly going to retaliate , but that is for the future, and there will be time to prepare for it, just like there was time after "Chosen" for Buffy and her friends to regroup, organize, and prepare for the next inevitable apocalypse.
"Not Fade Away," in my opinion, should have ended either before the scene in the alley or after the battle was over. The way that Joss did it was, to me, like reading a murder mystery with the final chapter removed, or having to leave a baseball game after only the 8th inning.
Apparently I'm one of the few people who feel cheated and betrayed by this sort of thing, and I'm glad that so many people liked it that way. I just don't happen to be one of them.
Goby
Brb, shipping Snoyce
IMHO, "Not Fade Away" is so much like my favorite book, "For Whom The Bell Tolls." There are so many similarities. I don't think Joss has ever mentiones it. It's just my opinion.
The ending of "For Whom The Bell Tolls" is exactly like the ending in "Not Fade Away." And that's why I love it. The book is at home, but it ends something like this....
"Robert Jordan then kneeled and aimed. He felt the pine needles on the ground."
I thought the book was missing a page. And then I got it. Oh, the brilliance of Hemingway. And oh, the brilliance of Joss Whedon. 🙂
In both case, it's absolute perfection.
H
Hale Caesar
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PassionBecoming
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YummySushiPJs
Scooby
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2011
- Messages
- 543
Just watched the final ever episode. Wow. Had no idea until I came on here that some people considered that to be a cliffhanger. It was so not a cliffhanger. One of the best endings of a TV series I have ever seen!
Just some random thoughts on the episode and series as a whole.
I think the tears on "Fred's" face as she comforted a dying Wesley were partly Illyria's own tears.
My biggest regret of the series ending is that we don't get to see Illyria developping as a character, though it is hinted at that she retains a tiny portion of humanity, maybe even Fred's own humanity, and that's a good enough ending for me.
I spent much of the series liking Lorne and hoping for him to become a main character. He finally did, and was awesome for a while, but then season 5 came and he sort of didn't do much. His ending was so sad, I felt so sorry for him. I am not sure if I quite understood his ending on the show, but from what I gather he didn't like the world that Angel and co had dragged him into, he didn't like what he and they were becoming, and wished to go back to just being Lorne? Maybe someone could explain it better... Also I don't get why Angel wanted Lorne to kill Lyndsey.
As much as I love the defiance against the Senior Partners, showing them even if just for a moment that they can be defied, I am not sure I understood the sudden need for Angel and everyone else to stand up against them. Couldn't they just leave W&H, go back to the hotel and back to helping the helpless like they did before?
Harmony's actions at the end disappointed me, but totally made sense for her. I was more disappointed that she wasn't used more and developped as a character throughout the season.
The dragon at the end looks similar to the dragon that came through Glory's dimensional portal.
What happened to Eve? She didn't see the point in fighting on (not that she ever really fought). Did she just give up hiding and give herself up to the senior partners?
I love that Spike read out his "Beauty Effulgient" poem and finally got the reaction he'd always wanted (and from a bunch of scary biker demons no less).
Angel signed a contract to the circle of the black thorn, about not turning human, but then he killed them all so does the contract still stand?
One thing I don't think has been tied up - where's Druscilla? Unless I've forgotten it, she wasn't killed off. Is she still out there somewhere?
Just some random thoughts on the episode and series as a whole.
I think the tears on "Fred's" face as she comforted a dying Wesley were partly Illyria's own tears.
My biggest regret of the series ending is that we don't get to see Illyria developping as a character, though it is hinted at that she retains a tiny portion of humanity, maybe even Fred's own humanity, and that's a good enough ending for me.
I spent much of the series liking Lorne and hoping for him to become a main character. He finally did, and was awesome for a while, but then season 5 came and he sort of didn't do much. His ending was so sad, I felt so sorry for him. I am not sure if I quite understood his ending on the show, but from what I gather he didn't like the world that Angel and co had dragged him into, he didn't like what he and they were becoming, and wished to go back to just being Lorne? Maybe someone could explain it better... Also I don't get why Angel wanted Lorne to kill Lyndsey.
As much as I love the defiance against the Senior Partners, showing them even if just for a moment that they can be defied, I am not sure I understood the sudden need for Angel and everyone else to stand up against them. Couldn't they just leave W&H, go back to the hotel and back to helping the helpless like they did before?
Harmony's actions at the end disappointed me, but totally made sense for her. I was more disappointed that she wasn't used more and developped as a character throughout the season.
The dragon at the end looks similar to the dragon that came through Glory's dimensional portal.
What happened to Eve? She didn't see the point in fighting on (not that she ever really fought). Did she just give up hiding and give herself up to the senior partners?
I love that Spike read out his "Beauty Effulgient" poem and finally got the reaction he'd always wanted (and from a bunch of scary biker demons no less).
Angel signed a contract to the circle of the black thorn, about not turning human, but then he killed them all so does the contract still stand?
One thing I don't think has been tied up - where's Druscilla? Unless I've forgotten it, she wasn't killed off. Is she still out there somewhere?
PassionBecoming
Minuscule Redheaded One
Well, I'm excited to watch this ep, but I'm also dreading it. I really want to see how it ends, but it's also the end of the new Buffyverse eps for me, and I also feel like all the questions I have about this season of the series aren't going to be answered in this one short episode which will bother me. It seems like there's so much to wrap-up still!
-I love that Spike was the first to volunteer to die for the cause.
-Ut-oh. The Black Thorn wants to meet with Angel already? 0_0
-I love when Angel is all sassy to those in authority.
-"We are interested in Mr. Wydom-Price. He seems intriguingly unstable." Hahaha.
-And Angel had to forfeit his humanity for the cause. *sigh*
-Harmony reminiscing. And wants in on the fight!
-Maybe Lindsey needs to listen to one of Buffy's speeches. 😛
-"Live the day like it's your last. Because it probably is." 🙁
-Connor
-Spike is going to be fighting with one massive hangover
-Aw, Gunn goes to see Annie!!
-"You're a very inspirational person." Yup, Illyria gives good pep talks!
-Thinking of Wesley when he first arrived as a new Watcher, to this moment when he is so beaten down by life - both women he has loved are dead and he has no perfect day - is so sad.
-William saying his poetry. And everyone loves it!!! So awesome! "That was for Cecily!"
-"I get what you did. And I'm grateful." Finally, Connor being thankful for Angel!
-Uh, Lindsey, Angel had his mitts all over Eve...
-Might be a Grimm Brothers fairytale...
-"I'll make trophies of their spines." "Good to have you on the team." Heh.
-WHAT! Frickin' Harmony...
-"Try not to die. You are not unpleasant to my eyes." Not to mine either, Illyria!
-Ugh, this is so stressful to watch!!!!
-So, fighting Hamilton is like fighting The Beast...seems not right. Nice play with the poison, though. Angel's not just all brawn. 😉
-Aw, Spike with the baby. Kill 'em all, Blondie Bear!
-Good thing Lindsey still has his moves.
-Connor saves the day! I enjoy new Connor. And he's a lot smarter.
-Nice hatchet move, Gunn!
-Annd that car is totalled. Love seeing Illyria just walking away.
-"I've heard you sing." 0_0 I did not see that one coming. He said "One last job" so I'm assuming Angel told him to do it, but I'm also guessing Lorne knew he would do no good in the future. Wow.
-Uh, Wesley just got gutted?! What the frak??
-What. Just. Happened. Illyria showing affection for Wes. Wes and Fred. Illyria exploding the guy's head. But...Wesley. What.
-"Can you pick out the one word there you probably shouldn't have said?" Oh, it's ON!
-SP probably not so happy that the whole Black Thorn AND their liaison is dead...
-"They'll destroy you." "As long as you're ok, they can't." Father's love.
-Nice to see those boys made it through. Then Illyria drops in. "I feel grief for him. I can't control it. I wish to do more violence." Rock on.
-"Well, personally, I wanna slay the dragon. Let's go to work."
No. Words. What.
-I love that Spike was the first to volunteer to die for the cause.
-Ut-oh. The Black Thorn wants to meet with Angel already? 0_0
-I love when Angel is all sassy to those in authority.
-"We are interested in Mr. Wydom-Price. He seems intriguingly unstable." Hahaha.
-And Angel had to forfeit his humanity for the cause. *sigh*
-Harmony reminiscing. And wants in on the fight!
-Maybe Lindsey needs to listen to one of Buffy's speeches. 😛
-"Live the day like it's your last. Because it probably is." 🙁
-Connor
-Spike is going to be fighting with one massive hangover
-Aw, Gunn goes to see Annie!!
-"You're a very inspirational person." Yup, Illyria gives good pep talks!
-Thinking of Wesley when he first arrived as a new Watcher, to this moment when he is so beaten down by life - both women he has loved are dead and he has no perfect day - is so sad.
-William saying his poetry. And everyone loves it!!! So awesome! "That was for Cecily!"
-"I get what you did. And I'm grateful." Finally, Connor being thankful for Angel!
-Uh, Lindsey, Angel had his mitts all over Eve...
-Might be a Grimm Brothers fairytale...
-"I'll make trophies of their spines." "Good to have you on the team." Heh.
-WHAT! Frickin' Harmony...
-"Try not to die. You are not unpleasant to my eyes." Not to mine either, Illyria!
-Ugh, this is so stressful to watch!!!!
-So, fighting Hamilton is like fighting The Beast...seems not right. Nice play with the poison, though. Angel's not just all brawn. 😉
-Aw, Spike with the baby. Kill 'em all, Blondie Bear!
-Good thing Lindsey still has his moves.
-Connor saves the day! I enjoy new Connor. And he's a lot smarter.
-Nice hatchet move, Gunn!
-Annd that car is totalled. Love seeing Illyria just walking away.
-"I've heard you sing." 0_0 I did not see that one coming. He said "One last job" so I'm assuming Angel told him to do it, but I'm also guessing Lorne knew he would do no good in the future. Wow.
-Uh, Wesley just got gutted?! What the frak??
-What. Just. Happened. Illyria showing affection for Wes. Wes and Fred. Illyria exploding the guy's head. But...Wesley. What.
-"Can you pick out the one word there you probably shouldn't have said?" Oh, it's ON!
-SP probably not so happy that the whole Black Thorn AND their liaison is dead...
-"They'll destroy you." "As long as you're ok, they can't." Father's love.
-Nice to see those boys made it through. Then Illyria drops in. "I feel grief for him. I can't control it. I wish to do more violence." Rock on.
-"Well, personally, I wanna slay the dragon. Let's go to work."
No. Words. What.
I
itssmiletime
*starts to sob* wes and illyria... let's go to work... father's love...
nightshade
both love and hate that you've now finished it, enjoyed reading/seeing your reactions
Tome
I was also crushed on first viewing. That's the last tv episode taking place in the Buffyverse. :(
I agree with you, so you aren't the only one. When I watched the final moment of the finale and the credits came on, I said, "That's it? Really?" How can people not consider that a cliffhanger? It most definitely is because you don't know whether they live or die during that battle. Although, the characters made it sound so sure that they will end up dying. I prefer season finale's to wrap things up more, like they did in Buffy with "Chosen".
timbitsmama
Townie
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2014
- Messages
- 53
I think that this episode was kinda sucky. I get that Joss and his crew got a season taken away from them by the station, but it just....Ended. Angel's last line was weak. I mean, the whole concept of 'fight til the end' is good and all, and the last fight that they had--Illyria with the devil, Wes with the wizard, Gunn back with the vamps: that part of the episode was really cool to see how they each fought someone different. I found that the episode fell flat considering all the other high points of the series. I suppose that they had to end it somehow, but really it was just disappointing all in all. Really it was a sad goodbye!
Silverspike
Scooby
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,565
My biggest question with NFA, who was crying over Wesley as he was dying? I don't see Illyria being capable of it. If she was, good for her, if she wasn't, what does that mean about Fred? We hear that her soul was destroyed from one guy (Sparrow) with no real way to check if he was correct or not. It's not like it had happened before (the re-birthing of Old Ones.) so there's no way to research it.