Did Spuffy help Buffy's Depression?

[Ethan Reigns]

only cause someone had already busted Faith out

Willow could have busted Faith out with appropriate magic to either confuse the guards into letting her out or levitating her out of the prison yard. And the prison has one advantage - everyone knows where you are.

 

[garfan]

Willow could have busted Faith out with appropriate magic to either confuse the guards into letting her out or levitating her out of the prison yard. And the prison has one advantage - everyone knows where you are.

Yes but would she have thought to?

 

[NotASlayer]

I mean the way she described her heavenly dimension didn't sound that heavenly to me, her friends were certainly not safe and just a sense of Joyce being near rather than being with her. Not good enough for me. She should not have been in a state of peace from what she described

Things tend to fall apart when they attempt to describe "heaven" because descriptions of such have a definite tendency to sound boring. Supernatural may have had one of the better ways, with each person's heaven individually tailored to their likes and dislikes. The downside is you could end up dealing with angels, which in Supernatural are, by and large, monumental jerks.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Which brings up a question. Because it is considered heavenly does not make it good necessarily, we as humans only make that assumption with no proof to back that up based on religious belief (the less I say there the better lol). The only indication we have is Buffy said she was 'happy and at peace' but do we really know why that was?

Oooh that is a totally different discussion!
We can only really go on what Buffy/the writers indicate or imply. Nor do I think they wanted to get into the nuts and bolts of heaven/hell/religion.

Buffy: "I was happy. Wherever I was... I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time... didn't mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know...? And I was warm. And I was loved. And I was finished. Complete. I don't understand theology or dimensions, any of it, really. But I think I was in heaven".

So was it heaven, or a heavenly dimension - that's a bit vague. What happens in a potential afterlife..no one knows.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2024

If one throws Willows knowledge of Angel's return in S3 into the mix,Willow does not look so reckless. Especially the not digging up Buffy's coffin.

Personally, it is hard to form an opinion I can stick with because we know nothing of what Willow actually knew versus what she assumed.

Nevertheless, to me, the episode indicates that Willow is being unconsciencely reckless because she knows nothing and assumes everything about Buffy's status and she does not even fully understand the magics or the ritual. If she did, Buffy would not have awoken inside a coffin buried under 6 feet of dirt. Most damningly, she hid her preparations from Giles, so, on some level, she knew what she was attempting was very wrong.

Whilst I agree with your post...

I must say, Willow seems to get the brunt of the blame for the resurrection. Yes, it's written that she took charge of researching and putting together the spell, but in reality...she's got another witch, and an 1100 year old former demon helping her out. Maybe Tara didn't have a full grasp either, but Anya surely had come across the raising of the dead in her years, or knew of the dark magicks Willow would have to tap into in order to proceed with the spell.

All of them (Xander included) hid their plans from Giles. All of them agreed to do it.

I can think of many better ways to resurrect Buffy, but, this is the story Whedon-Noxon wanted to tell and they didn't really care what their audience thought. So, we got the season we got. And Buffy's audience ended up dropping 20% because of it.

I wonder how many fans at that point wondered if it was better if the series had ended at s5.

 

[NotASlayer]

I must say, Willow seems to get the brunt of the blame for the resurrection. Yes, it's written that she took charge of researching and putting together the spell, but in reality...she's got another witch, and an 1100 year old former demon helping her out. Maybe Tara didn't have a full grasp either, but Anya surely had come across the raising of the dead in her years, or knew of the dark magicks Willow would have to tap into in order to proceed with the spell.

By this point, they were pretty much ignoring Anya's knowledge of magic (and anything else, for that matter). Heck, things only got worse; the person with a thousand years of memories of demon realms and the darker side did not know anything about the First Evil. So much for it being an omnipresent embodiment of evil! More like no-one knowing who Star-Lord is in GotG...

I wonder how many fans at that point wondered if it was better if the series had ended at s5.

My guess would be at least 20%!

 

[NoShip]

I wonder how many fans at that point wondered if it was better if the series had ended at s5.

Based on the ratings and market research by 20th and UPN at the time, an overwhelming majority of viewers, above 80 per cent, were unhappy to very unhappy with S6. I am not aware of your specific question being asked by 20th or UPN, but, I can see the execs and Whedon not wanting an answer.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2024

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Spike helped her overcome her depression or made it harder to overcome it? Or do you think their relationship didn't affect her depression at all?
If the two of them didn't start a relationship, do you think Buffy would have worked through her depression sooner or later?
(Please keep in mind I know little to nothing about depression.)

Buffy's relationship with Spike greatly prolonged Buffy's depression because he used her depression to satisfy his sexual desires. Spike lays it out in Wrecked: 'The only thing better than killing a Slayer is fxcking one'. That is Spike's entire attitude. He does not ever care about Buffy, only keeping their sexual escapades going.

It is sad because in Bargaining and After Life, Spike is the absolute best for Buffy. But, by Flooded Spike is back to being a scummy stalker. Between Wrecked and AYW, Spike is nothing but a scumbag. He actually tells Buffy over and over how wrong she it. Total turd helping her get better.

Then, whenever Spike feels.Buffy pulling away from him, he goes into full abusive scumbag role. Watching Spike is a blatant lesson in how to dominate and control and trauma bond a damaged woman.

I have always thought that the supreme irony is that Riley of all people is the one to snap Buffy out of it. Also, how happy Buffy is portrayed in S7 until Spike shows up.

 

[NotASlayer]

Based on the ratings and market research by 20th and UPN at the time, an overwhelming majority of viewers, above 80 per cent, were unhappy to very unhappy with S6.

That is so bad it is practically impressive, in totally the wrong way.

 

[NoShip]

they portrayed Spike as choosing to be good at points so logically that must mean he chooses to be bad because that's the other side of choosing to be good. That's probably just the writers being inconsistent and changing their minds on what a soulless being can be and do though so I don't know how much that should shape the way we see his character.

I think the reality is that each episode writer portrayed Spike as that writer saw fit and Whedon never bothered to set a standard characterization that all writers had to use.

The 'writers' never agreed on what Spike actually was or where he was going until they decided that he could not be kept around without a soul after UPN scooped BTVS in Apr 2001. How Spike would get a soul was not settled until half way thru S6. So Spike was written terribly inconsistently and it is rather hard for us to decide what was really going on with him.

Even in S7, different writers characterize Spike very differently. At least thru LMPTM.

 

[garfan]

Oooh that is a totally different discussion!
We can only really go on what Buffy/the writers indicate or imply. Nor do I think they wanted to get into the nuts and bolts of heaven/hell/religion.

Buffy: "I was happy. Wherever I was... I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time... didn't mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know...? And I was warm. And I was loved. And I was finished. Complete. I don't understand theology or dimensions, any of it, really. But I think I was in heaven".

So was it heaven, or a heavenly dimension - that's a bit vague. What happens in a potential afterlife..no one knows.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2024

Whilst I agree with your post...

I must say, Willow seems to get the brunt of the blame for the resurrection. Yes, it's written that she took charge of researching and putting together the spell, but in reality...she's got another witch, and an 1100 year old former demon helping her out. Maybe Tara didn't have a full grasp either, but Anya surely had come across the raising of the dead in her years, or knew of the dark magicks Willow would have to tap into in order to proceed with the spell.

All of them (Xander included) hid their plans from Giles. All of them agreed to do it.



I wonder how many fans at that point wondered if it was better if the series had ended at s5.

I doubt many fans were actually satisfied with Buffy dying. Especially since Dawn was not a popular character

By this point, they were pretty much ignoring Anya's knowledge of magic (and anything else, for that matter). Heck, things only got worse; the person with a thousand years of memories of demon realms and the darker side did not know anything about the First Evil. So much for it being an omnipresent embodiment of evil! More like no-one knowing who Star-Lord is in GotG...



My guess would be at least 20%!

Based on the ratings and market research by 20th and UPN at the time, an overwhelming majority of viewers, above 80 per cent, were unhappy to very unhappy with S6. I am not aware of your specific question being asked by 20th or UPN, but, I can see the execs and Whedon not wanting an answer.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2024

numbers like that make me surprised the season wasn't retconned. Imagine some point in the final ep Buffy realizing "Everything's gone so wrong, it's like I'm in hell" and everything stopping as some demon taunts her with the faces of her friends and then the ending being Buffy fighting back to life

Buffy's relationship with Spike greatly prolonged Buffy's depression because he used her depression to satisfy his sexual desires. Spike lays it out in Wrecked: 'The only thing better than killing a Slayer is fxcking one'. That is Spike's entire attitude. He does not ever care about Buffy, only keeping their sexual escapades going.

except they didn't start having sex until eps 9 and 10 and then stopped at least somewhat after only five episodes. In fact one of the biggest issues they had was Buffy was frequently happier around him but wouldn't admit it. Seriously Spike was at some of his worst towards Buffy before the first time they had sex

I have always thought that the supreme irony is that Riley of all people is the one to snap Buffy out of it. Also, how happy Buffy is portrayed in S7 until Spike shows up.

that's not irony, that's the writers thumbing their noses at the fans

That is so bad it is practically impressive, in totally the wrong way.

 

[NotASlayer]

numbers like that make me surprised the season wasn't retconned. Imagine some point in the final ep Buffy realizing "Everything's gone so wrong, it's like I'm in hell" and everything stopping as some demon taunts her with the faces of her friends and then the ending being Buffy fighting back to life

I could have seen that being done, or perhaps do the "It was all a dream" thing, with it being a nightmare as Buffy passed through the hell portal. As bad a writing trick as that is, it would still have been an improvement.

I think the problem was that the season was disliked so much by three of the five main female characters that they had quit or refused to return, including the main character - a bad sign in a series supposed to concentrate on a strong female character - that they had made a retcon extremely difficult. Especially if Amber had refused to come back.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Mutant Enemy was pretty cavalier with it's use or religion and mythology, and a significant portion of the WB Network were non-profit UHF religious broadcasters, and S&P were probably sensitive to some topics. My guess is, it was easier to just make stuff up about a fake religion, rather than having to research and fact check stuff about real ones. So, Heavenly dimensions, as opposed to heaven. Frankly, we all saw Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey.

 

[NotASlayer]

I doubt many fans were actually satisfied with Buffy dying. Especially since Dawn was not a popular character

One alternative way of ending the episode and the series would have been for falling through the hell portal and hitting the ground not killing Buffy, but draining the Slayer-ness out of her, so that she hit the ground mostly unharmed and a normal human.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I doubt many fans were actually satisfied with Buffy dying. Especially since Dawn was not a popular character

Thankfully in s7 she admitted that if she had her time over she'd sacrifice Dawn.
As for how many people liked the episode at the time (and what people expected was a series finale), I'm not sure. Some people don't like the idea of her dying considering she'd broken the mould of surviving, others realised that Slayers tend to have a short life.

except they didn't start having sex until eps 9 and 10 and then stopped at least somewhat after only five episodes. In fact one of the biggest issues they had was Buffy was frequently happier around him but wouldn't admit it. Seriously Spike was at some of his worst towards Buffy before the first time they had sex

I don't think she was ever "happy" with him. Pleased to forget about life for a while when they had sex, but never happy ("Being with you makes things... simpler. For a little while").

Even before their 'relationship' in the earlier episodes of s6, it wasn't that she was happy, but he was helping her cope, I guess is the right word?

Post automatically merged: Sep 21, 2024

Based on the ratings and market research by 20th and UPN at the time, an overwhelming majority of viewers, above 80 per cent, were unhappy to very unhappy with S6. I am not aware of your specific question being asked by 20th or UPN, but, I can see the execs and Whedon not wanting an answer.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2024

Ouch, those are bad numbers!

Buffy's relationship with Spike greatly prolonged Buffy's depression because he used her depression to satisfy his sexual desires. Spike lays it out in Wrecked: 'The only thing better than killing a Slayer is fxcking one'. That is Spike's entire attitude. He does not ever care about Buffy, only keeping their sexual escapades going.

Exactly. And it only continues to spiral. Dead Things, the awful taunting and balcony sex. Buffy dead-eyed having sex behind a dumpster at Doublemeat Palace. The reluctant sex outside of her house in As You Were, ("he's not getting any gentler").

It is sad because in Bargaining and After Life, Spike is the absolute best for Buffy. But, by Flooded Spike is back to being a scummy stalker. Between Wrecked and AYW, Spike is nothing but a scumbag. He actually tells Buffy over and over how wrong she it. Total turd helping her get better.

Then, whenever Spike feels.Buffy pulling away from him, he goes into full abusive scumbag role. Watching Spike is a blatant lesson in how to dominate and control and trauma bond a damaged woman.

But he "loves" her! 😒

I have always thought that the supreme irony is that Riley of all people is the one to snap Buffy out of it. Also, how happy Buffy is portrayed in S7 until Spike shows up.

Agreed re: Riley. I've said it before, but the episode AYW to me never read as, 'look at what Buffy let go/could've had'. Here's a man who still loves and respects her, is able to come in with an outsider's perspective, who offers some kind words and reminds of her of how amazing she is. And that is a turning point for Buffy.

Buffy really needed therapy in s6, but definitely still needed it in s7.

 

[NotASlayer]

Buffy really needed therapy in s6, but definitely still needed it in s7.

In Empty Places, everyone should have looked at Buffy as if she was insane, knocked her out and shipped her off to England to Giles' coven friends for help. Then, when Spike came back, either staked him or just tied him up and gagged him.

Really, they should have done that as soon as Spike turned up as Buffy's behaviour around him was not rational.

 

[hoponlilmama]

In Empty Places, everyone should have looked at Buffy as if she was insane, knocked her out and shipped her off to England to Giles' coven friends for help. Then, when Spike came back, either staked him or just tied him up and gagged him.

Really, they should have done that as soon as Spike turned up as Buffy's behaviour around him was not rational.

Instead, they tied up Andrew. Can we ship him off to England too? Permanently?

 

[NotASlayer]

Instead, they tied up Andrew. Can we ship him off to England too? Permanently?

Hey! I live in England! 😀

Personally, I thought he should have been used to summon a demon to fight on their side in "Chosen". Then fed to it.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Hey! I live in England! 😀

Wait, we can easily fix this! Germany it is!

Personally, I thought he should have been used to summon a demon to fight on their side in "Chosen". Then fed to it.

I'd prefer for that to happen earlier in the series..

 

[NoShip]

I think the problem was that the season was disliked so much by three of the five main female characters that they had quit or refused to return, including the main character - a bad sign in a series supposed to concentrate on a strong female character - that they had made a retcon extremely difficult. Especially if Amber had refused to come back.

Now you are getting to the really pernicious part of the 'Dictatorship of Joss' [and Marti].

Whedon put the writers above all else. Whatever was in the script Whedon approved would be shot exactly as written. If not, entire scenes had to be reshot.

In normal tv productions, actors and writers collaborate to define the characters. Not Whedon. The writers would define and redefine the characters as they saw fit and the actors that demanded some input into their characters [Gellar] were punished.

This was one of several reasons that shooting took about 15+ hours a day, 5 days a week.

Where it hurt the show was the large number of experienced crew and writers who would not put up with it and either never applied or quit after one season. This really hurt because inexperienced crew take a lot longer to set up shots. Factor in the exhaustion from the consistently long days and you have a huge part of the 80 hour work weeks that made up a Buffy season.

As for how many people liked the episode at the time (and what people expected was a series finale), I'm not sure. Some people don't like the idea of her dying considering she'd broken the mould of surviving, others realised that Slayers tend to have a short life.

Whatever the fans wanted, Buffy was always going to die at the end.

In Whedon's original 5 year plan, Buffy died in the series finale because death in the line of duty was the only ending for all Slayers.

Personally, I think the only reason Buffy didn't die in Chosen was that she had already died in The Gift.

Interestingly enough: The original title for The Gift? Chosen.

 

[garfan]

Whatever the fans wanted, Buffy was always going to die at the end.

In Whedon's original 5 year plan, Buffy died in the series finale because death in the line of duty was the only ending for all Slayers.

Personally, I think the only reason Buffy didn't die in Chosen was that she had already died in The Gift.

Interestingly enough: The original title for The Gift? Chosen.

Stupid and short sighted. You don't tell a story of how special a character is by ending how they are the same as everyone. Also Prophecy Girl defeats the point of Slayers needing to die

 

[hoponlilmama]

Whatever the fans wanted, Buffy was always going to die at the end.

In Whedon's original 5 year plan, Buffy died in the series finale because death in the line of duty was the only ending for all Slayers.

Personally, I think the only reason Buffy didn't die in Chosen was that she had already died in The Gift.

Yes, it would not make sense to have Buffy die once again in Chosen - and given the fact they were going for an uplifting theme.

Interestingly enough: The original title for The Gift? Chosen.

If that is the case, glad they changed it.