Did Spuffy help Buffy's Depression?

[Bop]

@Tome Yeah but all the demons and vamps that Buffy has killed had no choice over being soulless either but it's not played as something we're supposed to sympathise with as a condition. It doesn't compare to a human girl with depression to me.

 

[Tome]

@Tome Yeah but all the demons and vamps that Buffy has killed had no choice over being soulless either but it's not played as something we're supposed to sympathise with as a condition. It doesn't compare to a human girl with depression to me.

I get your point. I just think that excusing Buffy's reprehensible actions because she was depressed is unjustified. Being depressed is not a free pass to do bad things. It's a factor to consider when judging your actions, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. On the other hand, Spike was literally soulless. Vampires without a soul in the Buffyverse are not the same people they were as humans. If you're ready to say that there were extenuating circumstances for Buffy, I just can't fathom how there weren't any for Spike.

And, yes, I do realize that Spike is unique in the Buffyverse, where even though he was soulless during those seasons, he still seemed human in certain ways. I know that this makes this whole thing more complicated, and that we tend to judge him more harshly for his actions because in certain occasions he showed that he could be good even while soulless.

 

[Bop]

If you're ready to say that there were extenuating circumstances for Buffy, I just can't fathom how there aren't any for Spike too.

I'm just not sure that being soulless is an extenuating circumstance for Spike, it's just who he is, technically the chip is more the extenuating circumstance that has been stopping him from acting on his instincts but because he is human-like I do consider him enough of a person to say that Buffy abused him and I think the chip is forcing Spike into a role he can't fit which is cosmically unfair. But as you say, they portrayed Spike as choosing to be good at points so logically that must mean he chooses to be bad because that's the other side of choosing to be good. That's probably just the writers being inconsistent and changing their minds on what a soulless being can be and do though so I don't know how much that should shape the way we see his character.

 

[Tome]

I'm just not sure that being soulless is an extenuating circumstance for Spike, it's just who he is, technically the chip is more the extenuating circumstance that has been stopping him from acting on his instincts but because he is human-like I do consider him enough of a person to say that Buffy abused him and I think the chip is forcing Spike into a role he can't fit which is cosmically unfair. But as you say, they portrayed Spike as choosing to be good at points so logically that must mean he chooses to be bad because that's the other side of choosing to be good. That's probably just the writers being inconsistent and changing their minds on what a soulless being can be and do though so I don't know how much that should shape the way we see his character.

Point taken, but it just bugs me that the story made it clear again and again that Angel was not responsible for Angelus' actions, yet Spike tends to be criticized fervently for his actions without a soul.

I'm 100% certain that with his soul, Spike/William would have never treated Buffy the way he did in season 6. So, this is why I said Spike had extenuating circumstances too. And even if I go along with what you're saying, I don't see Buffy's depression as an excuse for using Spike, beating him up, and treating him like shit when she knew he loved her.

 

[Sinmerina]

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Spike helped her overcome her depression or made it harder to overcome it? Or do you think their relationship didn't affect her depression at all?
If the two of them didn't start a relationship, do you think Buffy would have worked through her depression sooner or later?
(Please keep in mind I know little to nothing about depression.)

I think it helped Buffy in some way. Sometimes people need something to help them cope with what they are going through, and in this case, Spike helped Buffy “forget” her problems in some way. I think it was a distraction for her in the long run too. Spike was the only person, minus Tara, that Buffy opened up to, and he was basically the only one there for her when she needed someone the most throughout the season too.

 

[Angel6]

It’s a metaphor for self harm which ends in rape. Does that sound helpful?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Buffy's relationship with Spike did neither. Buffy's depression during this period was not affected by her relationship with Spike. She would have been depressed whether she was sleeping with Spike or not. What she needed was time to work though her feelings regarding being pulled out of Heaven and frankly she could have used a therapist.

What her relationship with Spike did do however was alienate and isolate her further from her friends, which is definitely not a good thing when one is depressed.

I do believe that confiding in Spike helped her though. To have someone to talk to who she knew wouldn't judge her.

 

[NoShip]

Do you think that Buffy's relationship with Spike helped her overcome her depression or made it harder to overcome it? Or do you think their relationship didn't affect her depression at all?
If the two of them didn't start a relationship, do you think Buffy would have worked through her depression sooner or later?
(Please keep in mind I know little to nothing about depression.)

Spike did not help. Buffy got worse until Riley and wife paid a visit. Then, Buffy dumped Spike and finally began to focus on her sister and her friends and herself. THAT turned out to be the best medicine.

Depression is kind of unique to each patient and different treatments work on different people differently. So....docs and therapists have to try different things and see what works.

TLDR: Spuffy s6 definetely extended Buffy's depression and did not do her any good. Spike did save her life in OMWF and rightfully deserves props for that.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Spike did not help. Buffy got worse until Riley and wife paid a visit. Then, Buffy dumped Spike and finally began to focus on her sister and her friends and herself. THAT turned out to be the best medicine.

Depression is kind of unique to each patient and different treatments work on different people differently. So....docs and therapists have to try different things and see what works.

TLDR: Spuffy s6 definetely extended Buffy's depression and did not do her any good. Spike did save her life in OMWF and rightfully deserves props for that.

Agree.

Said this in another post, but the episode As You Were was a turning point for Buffy.
I don't see it as the episode being set up as, 'look at how amazing Riley's life is and look at how great Buffy's life would be if she was still with him', I see it as a man that still loves and respects her being able to come in with an outsider's perspective, offer her some kind words, and remind her of who she really is.

Only then could she end her 'relationship' with Spike and try to move towards the light and get out of her darkness.

Spike gaslit her, isolated her and took advantage of her depression. Otherwise she never had any interest in him and if Buffy hadn't died, wouldn't have gotten together with Spike.

"This isn't real, but I just want to feel" - I think their chemistry (which I don't deny SMG and JM had it) overrides the fact that it doesn't fully sink in how low and how depressed Buffy was to finally give up and have sex with Spike. When only months before she didn't give a toss about him.

 

[NoShip]

I get your point. I just think that excusing Buffy's reprehensible actions because she was depressed is unjustified. Being depressed is not a free pass to do bad things. It's a factor to consider when judging your actions, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. On the other hand, Spike was literally soulless. Vampires without a soul in the Buffyverse are not the same people they were as humans. If you're ready to say that there were extenuating circumstances for Buffy, I just can't fathom how there weren't any for Spike.

And, yes, I do realize that Spike is unique in the Buffyverse, where even though he was soulless during those seasons, he still seemed human in certain ways. I know that this makes this whole thing more complicated, and that we tend to judge him more harshly for his actions because in certain occasions he showed that he could be good even while soulless.

Your argument is correct. But, if we dont judge him, then, we have to kill him like any other soulless beast would be killed in this situation.

 

[Darthannabel]

Point taken, but it just bugs me that the story made it clear again and again that Angel was not responsible for Angelus' actions, yet Spike tends to be criticized fervently for his actions without a soul.

I'm 100% certain that with his soul, Spike/William would have never treated Buffy the way he did in season 6. So, this is why I said Spike had extenuating circumstances too. And even if I go along with what you're saying, I don't see Buffy's depression as an excuse for using Spike, beating him up, and treating him like shit when she knew he loved her.

In Smashed, Spike even tells Buffy “I’m a vampire I tread on the dark side, what’s your excuse?” This is who he is, to be that way, he just had shreds of humanity that shined every once in a while because the chip toned down the predator instinct to allow him to see things a little differently, but essentially, he is evil.

I also don’t think he was 100% wrong when he told her she had darkness in her. Because she does. Her life is full of gore and her duty is to kill. Did he say it in the worst way possible? Yeah, because he is still evil at this point, but not completely wrong. She just never forgets to bring the light into that darkness which is what makes her Buffy.

Also when Buffy met Angel he had his soul for about a century so he’s had more than enough time to learn how to live with a soul and demon inside of him. Spike had his soul for like not even a year, if soulless Spike and Spike with a soul seem somewhat similar it’s because he’s still figuring it out himself. Which he had no time to do because you know, helping save the world and all.

Not saying that the things Spike did was right because some of those scenes were hard to watch, but at the end of the day he’s a vampire, he is evil. He’d still be trying to kill her if he didn’t have the chip. Because that’s how it goes vampires and slayers fight to the death.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

It hinder her in all aspects in the long run.

I don't think Giles leaving at such a crucial time help either as I feel perhaps if he had been around for much longer, he would have notice the effects of what Buffy was going through with her return and help her in a more productive and healthy way for her to heal.

Obviously her friends were going through their own stuff however I think if Giles got to understand the depths of Buffy's trauma, he would have gather the rest of the Scoobies up and have a good talking to them about needing to be there for Buffy.

Spike's involvement prolonged her pain and torment because he just wasn't equipped to help her in a selfless way. The situation that came about was to his advantage particularly as he could see the growing gap between Buffy and her love ones especially when she spoke openly and admitted what she felt happened to her when she died.

As a soulless vampire, his own wants will be why he will do the things he does. Understanding Buffy has darkness in her doesn't mean she needs to be drawn more to that side of herself. She can be aware of it and acknowledge it's a part of her but know she is much more than that. But Spike is not concerned about Buffy for those reasons. He wants her whatever the cost to her own self worth because his views of love as a soulless creature are unhealthy and toxic.

I know some think it's unfair when talking about Spike in this situation and then the comparison with Angel from certain people.
My thoughts are that because spuffy started from such where it did in Spike being 'in love' with Buffy without a soul, it makes it a bit more complex and complicated especially because many were championing for them to be a pair before the end of this series and not with the knowledge of Spike going to get a/his soul for her.

There were many who were happy with their 'relationship' even though it was extremely messy and toxic however their continuous 'shagging' was met with joy particularly as it was one up on what she had with Angel. (Which I remember from a few websites and magazines back in the day). But then along came Seeing Red and many people only then felt that the relationship (at that time) was destroyed. Because it would seem nothing before that could be question as not being good for Buffy in the first place.

The main thing for me when Angel lost his soul was that as hard as it was seeing that soulless side of him, it would never enter my mind for wanting Buffy to even think of completing being in any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with Angel/us. Even with all the problematic opinions of their relationship as it is viewed today and also the limitations of what they had to go through due to Angel's soul, the romantic relationship works for me because it just about Buffy and Angel's connection (which was complicated enough) and nothing to do with anything regarding how Angelus felt about Buffy (which was not a lot apart from hatred).

I just believe that for many they were rooting for spuffy to happen even before the soul storyline and if they hadn't created Spike being resouled, it still wouldn't have made a difference to those that wanted them together in the first place as Spike had the chip in his brain to neuter him from harming any humans

Spike getting back a soul was them trying to give the story and character more layers which I can understand was appealing for many and would help to soften the backlash of what Seeing Red had caused but it didn't work for me.

Many years have passed and while I can appreciate all efforts that was given by everyone in the last two series/seasons of BTVS, I know they will always be the ones I least enjoy and watch.

I think regardless of Buffy's actions in s5 and her treatment of Spike at the latter half of that series, there were plenty of reasons for why she was that way with him especially with her main and top priority in keeping Dawn safe and understanding and using Spike for her own benefits. There was a sense of gratitude for his help but knowing it was only because of his feelings for her and not just because it was for the greater good. I absolutely believe this version of Buffy if she had never sacrifice herself and somehow defeated Glory and save Dawn and the world would have not had any kind of relationship with Spike moving forward from that battle. The powers that be and the writers deliberately had to come up with a way that would justify Buffy entering a relationship with a soulless being in Spike and being completely depress and detach having been pulled away from heaven was the only way to go.

Sorry for the rambling!

 

[hoponlilmama]

It hinder her in all aspects in the long run.

I don't think Giles leaving at such a crucial time help either as I feel perhaps if he had been around for much longer, he would have notice the effects of what Buffy was going through with her return and help her in a more productive and healthy way for her to heal.

Obviously her friends were going through their own stuff however I think if Giles got to understand the depths of Buffy's trauma, he would have gather the rest of the Scoobies up and have a good talking to them about needing to be there for Buffy.

Spike's involvement prolonged her pain and torment because he just wasn't equipped to help her in a selfless way. The situation that came about was to his advantage particularly as he could see the growing gap between Buffy and her love ones especially when she spoke openly and admitted what she felt happened to her when she died.

As a soulless vampire, his own wants will be why he will do the things he does. Understanding Buffy has darkness in her doesn't mean she needs to be drawn more to that side of herself. She can be aware of it and acknowledge it's a part of her but know she is much more than that. But Spike is not concerned about Buffy for those reasons. He wants her whatever the cost to her own self worth because his views of love as a soulless creature are unhealthy and toxic.

I know some think it's unfair when talking about Spike in this situation and then the comparison with Angel from certain people.
My thoughts are that because spuffy started from such where it did in Spike being 'in love' with Buffy without a soul, it makes it a bit more complex and complicated especially because many were championing for them to be a pair before the end of this series and not with the knowledge of Spike going to get a/his soul for her.

There were many who were happy with their 'relationship' even though it was extremely messy and toxic however their continuous 'shagging' was met with joy particularly as it was one up on what she had with Angel. (Which I remember from a few websites and magazines back in the day). But then along came Seeing Red and many people only then felt that the relationship (at that time) was destroyed. Because it would seem nothing before that could be question as not being good for Buffy in the first place.

The main thing for me when Angel lost his soul was that as hard as it was seeing that soulless side of him, it would never enter my mind for wanting Buffy to even think of completing being in any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with Angel/us. Even with all the problematic opinions of their relationship as it is viewed today and also the limitations of what they had to go through due to Angel's soul, the romantic relationship works for me because it just about Buffy and Angel's connection (which was complicated enough) and nothing to do with anything regarding how Angelus felt about Buffy (which was not a lot apart from hatred).

I just believe that for many they were rooting for spuffy to happen even before the soul storyline and if they hadn't created Spike being resouled, it still wouldn't have made a difference to those that wanted them together in the first place as Spike had the chip in his brain to neuter him from harming any humans

Spike getting back a soul was them trying to give the story and character more layers which I can understand was appealing for many and would help to soften the backlash of what Seeing Red had caused but it didn't work for me.

Many years have passed and while I can appreciate all efforts that was given by everyone in the last two series/seasons of BTVS, I know they will always be the ones I least enjoy and watch.

I think regardless of Buffy's actions in s5 and her treatment of Spike at the latter half of that series, there were plenty of reasons for why she was that way with him especially with her main and top priority in keeping Dawn safe and understanding and using Spike for her own benefits. There was a sense of gratitude for his help but knowing it was only because of his feelings for her and not just because it was for the greater good. I absolutely believe this version of Buffy if she had never sacrifice herself and somehow defeated Glory and save Dawn and the world would have not had any kind of relationship with Spike moving forward from that battle. The powers that be and the writers deliberately had to come up with a way that would justify Buffy entering a relationship with a soulless being in Spike and being completely depress and detach having been pulled away from heaven was the only way to go.

Sorry for the rambling!

Great post. I won't break it all down, but will comment specifically on the last paragraph.
100% Buffy had no interest in Spike in s5, and if the series ended there, that would've been it. She didn't love him, didn't care for him. She was grateful in that one moment where she acted as the Buffybot (but stupidly rewards him with a kiss), but other than that, took advantage of the fact that Spike was 'in love' with her, when she needed more muscle in the fight against Glory.

As for their 'relationship' in s6, it was quoted in one of the books I read when putting together s6 the writers discussed who would be Buffy's "love interest" in s6. Why on Earth they needed to give her one in this season was utterly ridiculous, and from what I understand now is Spuffy fans were very vocal and wanted to see them together, so they caved to their demands.

Just lucky for them the series moved in UPN and they were able to make raunchier scenes. Which is very unfortunate for poor James who lacked much of a wardrobe. SMG wasn't a fan of those scenes either (well, s6 in general).

 

[NotASlayer]

Just lucky for them the series moved in UPN and they were able to make raunchier scenes. Which is very unfortunate for poor James who lacked much of a wardrobe. SMG wasn't a fan of those scenes either (well, s6 in general).

It says something about a fictional relationship when, by the sounds of it, it causes the actor playing one of the people to quit. "I'd rather look for other work than depict something so awful."

 

[hoponlilmama]

It says something about a fictional relationship when, by the sounds of it, it causes the actor playing one of the people to quit. "I'd rather look for other work than depict something so awful."

True. SMG haaaates s6. Some of that being she couldn't believe how OOC Buffy was acting. It sent James into therapy. But hey...Spuffy sexy times and that's all that matters...🤷‍♂️

 

[NoShip]

As for their 'relationship' in s6, it was quoted in one of the books I read when putting together s6 the writers discussed who would be Buffy's "love interest" in s6. Why on Earth they needed to give her one in this season was utterly ridiculous, and from what I understand now is Spuffy fans were very vocal and wanted to see them together, so they caved to their demands.

Well..... The focus on giving Buffy a love interest and making said love interest Spike to make the Spuffies happy cost Whedon & Co the show.

SMG despised the S6 Spuffy storyline and she and Whedon and Noxon had it out over and over and over again. SMG was so disgusted that she refused to extend her contract even when offered a salary equivalent to what the Friends stars were making.

To extend, SMG demanded a form of script approval. When 20th considered it, Whedon went ballistic and threatened to quit the show so 20th refused SMG and SMG refused to extend.

And so Buffy staggered into its finale.

Personally, I dont thing S6 was worth it.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I think that one of the show's messages is not to confuse the physical intimacy provided by casual sex with the emotional intimacy provided by a mature relationship. Buffy's issues in season 6 were spiritual and emotional, and to solve them, she needed to reconnect with her friends and family, not due to unsatiated carnal lust. Sex with Spike may make her physically feel better, but it wasn't going help her work through her issues with depression.

 

[NotASlayer]

I think that one of the show's messages is not to confuse the physical intimacy provided by casual sex with the emotional intimacy provided by a mature relationship. Buffy's issues in season 6 were spiritual and emotional, and to solve them, she needed to reconnect with her friends and family, not due to unsatiated carnal lust. Sex with Spike may make her physically feel better, but it wasn't going help her work through her issues with depression.

Sadly, they did a hideously poor job of depicting that, and it is the psychologically damaging and destructively meaningless physical relationship that a segment of the fanbase still romanticises.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Well..... The focus on giving Buffy a love interest and making said love interest Spike to make the Spuffies happy cost Whedon & Co the show.

SMG despised the S6 Spuffy storyline and she and Whedon and Noxon had it out over and over and over again. SMG was so disgusted that she refused to extend her contract even when offered a salary equivalent to what the Friends stars were making.

To extend, SMG demanded a form of script approval. When 20th considered it, Whedon went ballistic and threatened to quit the show so 20th refused SMG and SMG refused to extend.

And so Buffy staggered into its finale.

Personally, I dont thing S6 was worth it.

Yikes. Says a lot, doesn't it!

I actually like s6 and 7, but find them very problematic. They dropped the ball, unfortunately. Nor do those last two seasons impact on my love for the series. It still remains one of my all-time favourites. But you can't help thinking what could've been with some changes.

 

[NoShip]

The fundamental problem with S6 and S7 was Marti Noxon:
1. She did not know how to run a show,.she was.learning as she went and she made some huge mistakes.
2. Her Vision for BTVS was completely different from S1 thru S5.
3. Noxon, like Whedon, thought the comments from the 1% of the audience that posted on The Bronze and other boards, gave her a much better insight into the other 99% of the audience than the tried and true techniques used by 20th's Marketing Dept.
4. Like Whedon, she did not respond well to constructive criticism from the studio or the network.
5. She bullied her actors when they did not agree with her.

Noxon was determined to tell the story she wanted to tell in the manner she wanted to tell it. Unfortunately, her audience did not care for her story or how she told it. And her stars did not care for her dictatorial management style. After one season in charge, her network quietly asked that she be replaced and her primary star was.credibly threatening to publically quit over Noxon's storytelling.

Of course, Whedon loved Noxon, so, she remained showrunner to the end.