Did Spike began changing before getting a soul?

[NothingVentured]

Something else.

I think they were friends on the level Spike implies they were friends. She was nice to him, even when she had no reason to. And he clearly enjoys the attention she lays on him in Lovers Walk. If Buffy hadn't showed up, I imagine he could have sat there drinking cocoa and marshmallows for hours, telling her about all his sorrows.

This implies friendship how? The story doesn't run on imagination. You could just as well imagine he get bored and kill her. Their convo lasted exactly as long as it took for Buffy to get from the school to her house.

He subsequently never bothers going there again until S5 when he's there to con Buffy into his not-a-date. How great friends were they?

 

[katmobile]

This implies friendship how? The story doesn't run on imagination. You could just as well imagine he get bored and kill her. Their convo lasted exactly as long as it took for Buffy to get from the school to her house.

He subsequently never bothers going there again until S5 when he's there to con Buffy into his not-a-date. How great friends were they?

I don't think so since he didn't kill her when she attacked him with an axe or even attack her. Since both Kristine Sutherland and Caroline Lagerfeld who plays his own mother were explicitly stated to have been cast because they physically resembled Sarah it's not unreasonable to assume that Joyce resembled his mum physically and that and the fact she acted motherly towards him was enough to see her in that light. I think the making gestures that he would do something unpleasant to her was just to troll Angel and rub in the fact he wasn't able to get in.

 

[Puppet]

This implies friendship how? The story doesn't run on imagination. You could just as well imagine he get bored and kill her. Their convo lasted exactly as long as it took for Buffy to get from the school to her house.

He subsequently never bothers going there again until S5 when he's there to con Buffy into his not-a-date. How great friends were they?

You assume that he never hangs out with Joyce, because we don't see it. Just as I can assume that he does hang out with her, because we don't see it. Of course (parts) of the story runs on imagination.

 

[EffulgentBitca]

As Wiki puts it: "Allowing the individual to defer (put off) instant gratification, the reality principle is the governing principle of the actions taken by the ego, after its slow development from a "pleasure-ego" into a "reality-ego": it may be compared to the triumph of reason over passion, head over heart, rational over emotional mind.

Even though the process he undergoes because of the chip is hard to ever fully grasp since it's such a complex, non-linear one this depicts the psychological implications of it quite effectively. There may also be something to say in regards to classical conditioning and the effects of the negative stimuli in addition to his incapacitation and the need to adapt to it. Not only can't Spike relish in the pleasure of violence against humans, but when he tries to hurt someone he experiences an excruciating pain. That's bound to leave some marks, though whether in the end this kind of aversion therapy might produce any real results, or if the person in question can only ever be a serial killer in prison is up for debate. In Spike's case, accumulated with Buffy's influence and other factors, the chip seems to at least propel him into an identity crisis, but the role of free will in all of this and the possibility of authentic desire to change remain in question. Especially since there's also some vampire lore involved in relation to the soul.

Of course there's a lot of food for thought here. After all, the character that served as an inspiration for Spike's journey is Alex from A Clockwork Orange. And, as I've mentioned, to complicate already complicated matters furthermore, in the Buffyverse we also have souls. When I trust my stomach to be strong enough to stand all the violence, I'll have to properly consume and analyse this story, with an attention towards the parallels and differences between Alex and Spike. It should provide some needed insight.

What I like about SR is the tiled floor in the bathroom - a tessellation of black/white tiles. By attacking Buffy, he literally crosses (the) line(s)...just as the bullet that kills Tara crosses the line (from outside to in). One of the things I like about Lessons, is Giles patrolling fences in England (reinforcing lines/boundaries).

While I saw the black/white tiles as a representation of Spike's duality and impossibility to reconcile his two sides, I haven't thought of it in terms of lines and boundaries before. It's a fitting imagery given both his action breaking all boundaries in Seeing Red, that made him fully aware of the line separating his conflicting inner worlds, neither of which he truly belonged to in reality, and his subsequent decision to try to be on one side of that line, inside, or outside, a creature of darkness, or one of light. Sure, things are never so black-or-white, but this is rather about a Sirius Black—We've all got both light and dark inside us, what matters is the part we choose to act on—kind of deal and about his need to be able to finally act one way or another instead of being stuck as he were.

Bugger "becoming" - he just wants to BE.

Yes, precisely. This sums it up quite nicely. And since you've also mentioned the parallels between him and Buffy in Grave, I think that can also apply in a manner to Buffy's struggle in season 6, when the numbness leaves her feeling dead inside, disconnected from the world and from her sense of self, her sense of being. Most seasons are about Buffy becoming, but this one is about her re-learning to simply be.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

This implies friendship how? The story doesn't run on imagination. You could just as well imagine he get bored and kill her. Their convo lasted exactly as long as it took for Buffy to get from the school to her house.

He subsequently never bothers going there again until S5 when he's there to con Buffy into his not-a-date. How great friends were they?

I don't get your point. Spike never claims they were great friends. He says she treated him like a person, that she was the only Scooby he could stand and that she always had a cuppa for him.

 

[TriBel]

I've never bought into that Freudian Oepidal bs it's a gross oversimplification and sexist to boot penis envy doesn't exist unless you're desperate for a piss far from a loo or with an enormous queue for one in front of you, when you're facing patriarchal bs or if you're a binary trans man - at which point it's tricky but problem can be solved.

You don't have to buy into it - you can read/write against and out of it, which is what many contemporary theorists do. It's a starting point. My preferred position is post-Lacanian, taking on board the French feminists. Of course it's sexist - consider the time it was written in and the fact we live in a patriarchal society. I never mentioned penis envy - it's one aspect of Freud's thinking that's often dissected and refused (and I think it's probably early Freud). However, consider that the possibility that "Patriarchal BS" is a mis-identification of the penis with the phallus (power, hegemony). Consider the fact that some women feel they have to behave like men in order to have power (there's a reason Spitting Image portrayed Thatcher as a man).

I'm not saying he's trans but they same essay points out that at least one person who has those issues ID's with him as a result of that.

I don't have to read it (I may already have read it - I forget these things) - I'd say in theory Spike's "trans". In fact, I wouldn't...I'd say he's "queer" - in the sense that "queering" can be a tool for political and social subversion. Spike problematises binary oppositions far more than any other character. That's his strength and I think that's why Whedon likes him. TBH, I'm not even sure I'd use the word "queer" but, short of inventing one of my own, it'll have to do.

 

[katmobile]

You don't have to buy into it - you can read/write against and out of it, which is what many contemporary theorists do. It's a starting point. My preferred position is post-Lacanian, taking on board the French feminists. Of course it's sexist - consider the time it was written in and the fact we live in a patriarchal society. I never mentioned penis envy - it's one aspect of Freud's thinking that's often dissected and refused (and I think it's probably early Freud). However, consider that the possibility that "Patriarchal BS" is a mis-identification of the penis with the phallus (power, hegemony). Consider the fact that some women feel they have to behave like men in order to have power (there's a reason Spitting Image portrayed Thatcher as a man).



I don't have to read it (I may already have read it - I forget these things) - I'd say in theory Spike's "trans". In fact, I wouldn't...I'd say he's "queer" - in the sense that "queering" can be a tool for political and social subversion. Spike problematises binary oppositions far more than any other character. That's his strength and I think that's why Whedon likes him. TBH, I'm not even sure I'd use the word "queer" but, short of inventing one of my own, it'll have to do.

The person did actual use the word queer and it's my lack of understanding of the term that sort of lead to trying to explain it a different way.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

That's it. It's never implied anywhere other than Spike's (sometimes delusional) words that they were on any level friends.

Spike mentions how Joyce always had a "cuppa" waiting for him, the implication being that they have socialised off screen. Also just because Joyce doesn't want Buffy getting romantically involved with Spike doesn't mean she thinks he's a "sicko". If she thought that, then she wouldn't let him anywhere near the house or her daughters.

I'd argue that Cecily is a replacement for his mother (who he knows he'll lose soon. That aside, it's a common axiom);

I disagree. Spike sees Cecily as wife potential and then as a mother to any children they may have. He never sees her as a replacement for his own mother. I always felt that Spike was in denial over just how sick his mother was, it's not until he sees her literally coughing up blood (TB) that the reality of situation hits him. Also Anne's concern for Spike is that he's refusing to face reality so she's worried how her death is going to affect him because he's always prioritised her above everything else. Anne knows she is dying, that's why I think she is trying to push Spike into finding a wife so that he has someone for after she's gone.

Spike has a very caring personality. We see this when he's human, when he's with Dru, with Dawn, and a twisted version of this towards Buffy in Season 6. His "isolating" her from her friends isn't because he wants sole power over her, it's because she's miserable with the scoobies during that season.

Dru replaces Cecily. She rebirths him and becomes his second mother (they admit this).

Again I disagree. Dru refers to both Darla and Angelus as "Grandmother" and "Daddy" which shows she considers a familial connection with them (which makes the Angelus/Dru relationship all the more messed up and not a simple case of Dru being a "big ho"). However, not once does she refer to Spike as "Son". Her actual line is "I'm the other who gave birth to YOUR son". She doesn't say "OUR son" which means she still considers Spike firmly Anne's son.

Even with Darla in present day, she does the whole "I'm going to be a mummy" (yet still refers to Darla as "Grandmother") but her plan for Spike was "a playmate" and she said she would choose "the bravest knight in all the land". In School Hard, Dru says to Spike "I'm a princess" so the whole "brave knight" thing could play into some sort of fantasy for Dru.

Also worth mentioning is that in an interview, JM said that Dru pushes all of Spike's buttons to "white knight it".

Joyce - I agree (quite poignant that he misses her funeral as well as Anne's).

The funeral took place during the day so Spike didn't really have much choice. Also I don't think Anne had a funeral. He sired her at the house and then went back to the house when she was a vampire.

Buffy - the actress who plays Anne was chosen because of the resemblance to Buffy (and Joyce I presume).

I fail to see the resemblance to be quite honest.

I don't think Cecily or Drusilla are all that motherly. Spike's mother is very kind and nurturing. Cecily and Drusilla are both quite harsh. He is drawn to them for their glamorousness and sex appeal .... their effulgence.

Spike was drawn to Cecily because she likely fit the bill of what would be considered a "good wife" (especially as she seemed to have high social standing) but I'm guessing he didn't quite have the confidence to approach her because Cecily has to outright ask him if his poems are about her. He even takes a deep breath before admitting they are (a sign he had to summon up the courage to do so) and he is heartbroken when she cruelly rejects him. He likely had a fantasy on how things would go eg he'd read his poetry to Cecily and she would be wooed by it, and when it becomes clear that's not going to happen, he tries to cover "I know I'm a bad poet but I'm a good man". Her telling him "You're beneath me" sends his dreams crashing down.

As for Dru, what immediately draws Spike to her (apparently to the point of Cecily who?) is that she seems to "get him", the moment Spike fell for Dru was the moment she uttered the word "effulgent".

Doesn't he tell his mum she's glowing? LOL! never under-estimate the power of the unconscious! 😊

"Glowing" is another word for looking extremely well. Spike's mum was sickly, post-siring she looked much better. Buffy was miserable, in Hells Bells she was genuinely smiling.

People "glow" with pride. Pregnant women have a "glow" about them etc. Essentially Spike is telling his mother that she looks full of health.

Yes, but Drusilla is the complete opposite of his mother in every way.

And he has been writing love poems about Cecily for quite a while it seems, so I feel he is tempted to leave the nest, even though he has a hard time doing it. I don't think he was just looking for another woman to care for him. If he had been, he would have found someone else than Cecily.

I agree. Given his mother's ill health, Spike wouldn't just "abandon" her, more likely he would've moved Cecily into the house. Likewise, he assumed his mother was going to be travelling with him and Dru. Anne's concern for Spike was that he was refusing to face the reality of her situation, she was dying, and her trying to prod him to find a wife was so that he wouldn't be alone when she did die.

Only consciously...and he gets to shag her. Thus fulfilling a repressed childhood wish.

Spike looked absolutely horrified when his mother tried to shag him, not like his Christmases had come at once. He was so traumatised by that event that he repressed the memory. I seriously doubt he was looking at Dru in remotely the same way as he looked at his mother.

Dru was someone he could be all romantic towards, she was his lover.

If you really want to pin a male for oedipal complex, look no further than Wood. He literally bounces from one slayer to another.

He writes poems to Cecily but reads them to Anne (and looks for her approval).

Given that these poems could be make or break in his effort to woo Cecily, it makes sense that he's want to do a dress rehearsal in order to perfect them. It's no different than having to give an important speech and running through it with your family to ensure that it's the best it can be.

This implies friendship how? The story doesn't run on imagination. You could just as well imagine he get bored and kill her. Their convo lasted exactly as long as it took for Buffy to get from the school to her house.

Their conversation got interrupted by Angel, and Buffy only knew he was there because she was on the phone at the exact moment he turned up and she heard his voice. If Spike wanted Joyce dead, she would've been dead within moments. Instead, Joyce has time to make two cocoas and Spike gets comfortable enough to retell his tale of woe. Joyce clearly doesn't feel threatened by him, and she is more worried about Angel.

He subsequently never bothers going there again until S5 when he's there to con Buffy into his not-a-date. How great friends were they?

Spike left town for the majority of Season 3 and even Buffy barely visited Joyce in Season 4.

You could argue why were Willow and Xander so upset over Joyce's death when they barely spent any time with her?

You assume that he never hangs out with Joyce, because we don't see it. Just as I can assume that he does hang out with her, because we don't see it. Of course (parts) of the story runs on imagination.

Agreed.

I don't get your point. Spike never claims they were great friends. He says she treated him like a person, that she was the only Scooby he could stand and that she always had a cuppa for him.

Exactly.

@TriBel I wouldn't say Spike is in any way "trans" or "queer". He had to make lifestyle changes due to the fact that he had a chip shoved in his brain against his will that forcibly prevented him from living a traditional vampire lifestyle, he still considers himself a vampire. It's akin to someone having a life changing injury, they have to adapt to living life with that injury eg someone with a broken spine isn't going to be walking up stairs therefore they have to find a house with no stairs to live in.

I would say if anyone was suffering an identity crisis, it would be Angel. He's a vampire but he doesn't want to be, the soul makes him feel ashamed of Angelus. Spike revels in being a vampire, Angel feels revulsion at his vampiric deeds. In Season 3, he has to "pretend" to be Angelus, much like it could be argued someone in the closet has to "pretend" to be straight. I'm not saying the soul makes Angel metaphorically gay/queer/whatever and you can't argue the soul is the same thing for Spike because a) the show changed its soul canon and b) if the soul was meant to represent gay/queer/whatever then you can't "choose" to be gay and Spike chose to get a soul.

All I'm saying is that Angel didn't choose to have a soul (it's a bit of a dodgy metaphor because Angel was "cursed" with a soul) but there are times when he has to "pretend" to be a vampire eg evil, even though he doesn't feel that way. He clings to the Shanshu prophecy because that's the chance to achieve what he feels he should/ants to be: human.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Still catching up on all the good thoughts here, but I kind of wanted to throw this here :
I think there's a reflexion to be had on how much has Spike actually changed and how much it boils down to the chip creating a space in which we are allowed to see other facets of his personality.
I tend to think it's definitely both, though I'll be damned if I can give an exact proportion. But I do believe that everything that Spike does was "present" within him from the beginning (and the flashbacks we get in LMPTM and ATS seem to confirm that), but that his demon/soullessness + the fact that the woman he loved very much lived to be evil just smoothed things up and made them overall uncomplicated.
So to try and answer briefly : loving Buffy allowed him to overcome/make up for some aspects of the "handicap" that represents the lack of soul, because it helped him (amongst other things) gain some empathy, albeit limited. In that respect, he did change, because his love for Drusilla called for doubling down on his evilness (some of which was taught rather than innate, it would seem), whereas his love for Buffy called for the opposite. However, I don't think a lot of his "good acts", or at least his potential goodness, were a novelty but rather something that was always present but never called upon.
Not sure if this is making sense 😛

 

[katmobile]

Spike mentions how Joyce always had a "cuppa" waiting for him, the implication being that they have socialised off screen. Also just because Joyce doesn't want Buffy getting romantically involved with Spike doesn't mean she thinks he's a "sicko". If she thought that, then she wouldn't let him anywhere near the house or her daughters.



I disagree. Spike sees Cecily as wife potential and then as a mother to any children they may have. He never sees her as a replacement for his own mother. I always felt that Spike was in denial over just how sick his mother was, it's not until he sees her literally coughing up blood (TB) that the reality of situation hits him. Also Anne's concern for Spike is that he's refusing to face reality so she's worried how her death is going to affect him because he's always prioritised her above everything else. Anne knows she is dying, that's why I think she is trying to push Spike into finding a wife so that he has someone for after she's gone.

Spike has a very caring personality. We see this when he's human, when he's with Dru, with Dawn, and a twisted version of this towards Buffy in Season 6. His "isolating" her from her friends isn't because he wants sole power over her, it's because she's miserable with the scoobies during that season.



Again I disagree. Dru refers to both Darla and Angelus as "Grandmother" and "Daddy" which shows she considers a familial connection with them (which makes the Angelus/Dru relationship all the more messed up and not a simple case of Dru being a "big ho"). However, not once does she refer to Spike as "Son". Her actual line is "I'm the other who gave birth to YOUR son". She doesn't say "OUR son" which means she still considers Spike firmly Anne's son.

Even with Darla in present day, she does the whole "I'm going to be a mummy" (yet still refers to Darla as "Grandmother") but her plan for Spike was "a playmate" and she said she would choose "the bravest knight in all the land". In School Hard, Dru says to Spike "I'm a princess" so the whole "brave knight" thing could play into some sort of fantasy for Dru.

Also worth mentioning is that in an interview, JM said that Dru pushes all of Spike's buttons to "white knight it".



The funeral took place during the day so Spike didn't really have much choice. Also I don't think Anne had a funeral. He sired her at the house and then went back to the house when she was a vampire.



I fail to see the resemblance to be quite honest.



Spike was drawn to Cecily because she likely fit the bill of what would be considered a "good wife" (especially as she seemed to have high social standing) but I'm guessing he didn't quite have the confidence to approach her because Cecily has to outright ask him if his poems are about her. He even takes a deep breath before admitting they are (a sign he had to summon up the courage to do so) and he is heartbroken when she cruelly rejects him. He likely had a fantasy on how things would go eg he'd read his poetry to Cecily and she would be wooed by it, and when it becomes clear that's not going to happen, he tries to cover "I know I'm a bad poet but I'm a good man". Her telling him "You're beneath me" sends his dreams crashing down.

As for Dru, what immediately draws Spike to her (apparently to the point of Cecily who?) is that she seems to "get him", the moment Spike fell for Dru was the moment she uttered the word "effulgent".



"Glowing" is another word for looking extremely well. Spike's mum was sickly, post-siring she looked much better. Buffy was miserable, in Hells Bells she was genuinely smiling.

People "glow" with pride. Pregnant women have a "glow" about them etc. Essentially Spike is telling his mother that she looks full of health.



I agree. Given his mother's ill health, Spike wouldn't just "abandon" her, more likely he would've moved Cecily into the house. Likewise, he assumed his mother was going to be travelling with him and Dru. Anne's concern for Spike was that he was refusing to face the reality of her situation, she was dying, and her trying to prod him to find a wife was so that he wouldn't be alone when she did die.



Spike looked absolutely horrified when his mother tried to shag him, not like his Christmases had come at once. He was so traumatised by that event that he repressed the memory. I seriously doubt he was looking at Dru in remotely the same way as he looked at his mother.

Dru was someone he could be all romantic towards, she was his lover.

If you really want to pin a male for oedipal complex, look no further than Wood. He literally bounces from one slayer to another.



Given that these poems could be make or break in his effort to woo Cecily, it makes sense that he's want to do a dress rehearsal in order to perfect them. It's no different than having to give an important speech and running through it with your family to ensure that it's the best it can be.



Their conversation got interrupted by Angel, and Buffy only knew he was there because she was on the phone at the exact moment he turned up and she heard his voice. If Spike wanted Joyce dead, she would've been dead within moments. Instead, Joyce has time to make two cocoas and Spike gets comfortable enough to retell his tale of woe. Joyce clearly doesn't feel threatened by him, and she is more worried about Angel.



Spike left town for the majority of Season 3 and even Buffy barely visited Joyce in Season 4.

You could argue why were Willow and Xander so upset over Joyce's death when they barely spent any time with her?



Agreed.



Exactly.

@TriBel I wouldn't say Spike is in any way "trans" or "queer". He had to make lifestyle changes due to the fact that he had a chip shoved in his brain against his will that forcibly prevented him from living a traditional vampire lifestyle, he still considers himself a vampire. It's akin to someone having a life changing injury, they have to adapt to living life with that injury eg someone with a broken spine isn't going to be walking up stairs therefore they have to find a house with no stairs to live in.

I would say if anyone was suffering an identity crisis, it would be Angel. He's a vampire but he doesn't want to be, the soul makes him feel ashamed of Angelus. Spike revels in being a vampire, Angel feels revulsion at his vampiric deeds. In Season 3, he has to "pretend" to be Angelus, much like it could be argued someone in the closet has to "pretend" to be straight. I'm not saying the soul makes Angel metaphorically gay/queer/whatever and you can't argue the soul is the same thing for Spike because a) the show changed its soul canon and b) if the soul was meant to represent gay/queer/whatever then you can't "choose" to be gay and Spike chose to get a soul.

All I'm saying is that Angel didn't choose to have a soul (it's a bit of a dodgy metaphor because Angel was "cursed" with a soul) but there are times when he has to "pretend" to be a vampire eg evil, even though he doesn't feel that way. He clings to the Shanshu prophecy because that's the chance to achieve what he feels he should/ants to be: human.

Read the essay before you dismiss it - it says he has some character traits strongly coded feminine (hence the queer identification) and insecurities related to it and this would be especially bad as he grew up in one of the most patriarchical societies known i.e. Victorian Britian and got a lot of stick for not confirming to their rigid idea of what mascalinity was plus Angelus trying to beta him on top of that.

 

[TriBel]

I disagree. Spike sees Cecily as wife potential and then as a mother to any children they may have. He never sees her as a replacement for his own mother.

I didn't say he did "see" her as a replacement. It's unconscious. They're linked through effulgent or "glowing". It's more complex than this but I don't have the time to write a 10,000 essay. This isn't real life...it's a text. The words are deliberately chosen. After writing about William's deliberation over effulgent do you think they'd casually throw in the word "glowing"? It doesn't matter whether Spike or William "knows" any of it.
It's repressed and the repressed makes its way to the surface in disguised form. The way Vamp!William responds is interesting. Why does he kill his mum? Because of the horror of her coming on to him - or the horror that she's revealed his "guilty secret". Or...did he unconsciously wish her dead all along? The Dr Gull he wants to ring was a suspect in the Jack the Ripper murders. Again, I don't think the writers drew the name out of a hat. I'm not saying it's any one of these things - I'm saying the things are there and I could draw them together and make a valid argument (if I was interested in writing a book - I was at one time. I'm not now). Nor am I "blaming" Spike/William for his actions - they're unconscious.

The Drusilla thing is too complicated for me to address here. Suffice to say, "incest" is written into the vampire myth if the newly turned vampire has sex with their sire. They're simultaneously parent/lover - child/lover.

I wouldn't say Spike is in any way "trans" or "queer".

Trans wasn't my word (@katmobile explained this - Thanks Kat). Queer - in this sense means he "troubles" dominant understandings. It's nothing to do with the soul. From Wiki: "queering is a way to "[deconstruct] the logics and frameworks operating within old and new theological and ethical concepts...queering "dismantles the dynamics of power and privilege persisting among diverse subjectivities." More straightforwardly, "queering can refer to the act of taking something and looking at it through a lens that makes it strange or troubles it in some way". You can't deny that Spike "troubles" our understanding of concepts such as "love" or "evil" (more so than Angel perhaps). Vampires, by definition are queer in the sense above - being neither dead nor alive. Angel is also "queer". I think Spike is more so.

I would say if anyone was suffering an identity crisis, it would be Angel.

I don't disagree but this doesn't preclude Spike having one. Here's the culmination of the problem that's been building:

You know, everything always used to be so clear.
Slayer.
Vampire.
Vampire kills slayer, sucks her dry, picks his teeth with her bones.
It's always been that way.
I've tasted the life of two slayers.
But with Buffy It isn't supposed to be this way.
It's the chip! Steel and wires and silicon.
It won't let me be a monster.
And I can't be a man.
- I'm nothing.

If that's not a crisis then I don't know what is.

If you really want to pin a male for oedipal complex, look no further than Wood.

Yeah...I'd pin it on Wood. TBH, I'd pin it on all the main characters. The oedipal complex applies equally to males and females (though not in the same way) - it's not pathologically abnormal. It's how its resolved (or not) that creates problems (or not). It's foundational and it's the one consistent throughout the 'verse - from 1 through to 12. It's also far more complicated than I'm suggesting here.

.

 

[Cheese Slices]

You assume that he never hangs out with Joyce, because we don't see it. Just as I can assume that he does hang out with her, because we don't see it. Of course (parts) of the story runs on imagination.

Also in Forever he says "she always had a cuppa for me", which implies frequency imo.

 

[RiverandFaith]

If feel the answer is yes, very much so. Spike was always looking for love, soul or not. He's a hardcore emotion man as is shown on multiple occasions.
"I may be love's b*tch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."
Spike would do almost anything for love, and he knows it, but I don't think he realizes how much his dependency changes him.
Yes, he is his own man, but he changes himself to have connection. With Dru he went further on the evil scale to keep her, but then once she leaves, we start to see how much he needs someone to bond to. Not even on a romantic sense! With Joyce he starts getting support and you see him change just a little. Then as the series goes on and he starts to see Buffy for the being she is ("I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are."), he again starts to change. He tries to be with her, granted not in a health sense, but he needs her, to the point of having his own version of her (buffy bot) to cope. Once he finally can have the real her, even though it's just in the physical sense, he seems satisfied. He's still in the mindset that he needs to be evil like he was with Dru. Then he wants her to need him like he needs her and then attempts to rape her, she smacks the sense into him that she could never love him, and he can't keep feeling anymore. There's too much emotion that wasn't there before and can't be managed or processed without a soul.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Once he finally can have the real her, even though it's just in the physical sense, he seems satisfied.

I disagree. Spike wants an emotional connection with Buffy. We see him several times try and talk about the "relationship" but she shuts the conversation down.

 

[NothingVentured]

You assume that he never hangs out with Joyce, because we don't see it. Just as I can assume that he does hang out with her, because we don't see it. Of course (parts) of the story runs on imagination.

I don't assume it because we don't see it. It's because we don't see it and NOTHING IMPLIES IT. If they hang out, why does he demand money in Checkpoint? Not only that, he's completely annoyed by their presence.

Spike mentions how Joyce always had a "cuppa" waiting for him, the implication being that they have socialised off screen. Also just because Joyce doesn't want Buffy getting romantically involved with Spike doesn't mean she thinks he's a "sicko". If she thought that, then she wouldn't let him anywhere near the house or her daughters.

There can be a list made of the things Spike mentions that aren't true. Unless you think he was some hapless slave in S6.

What exactly would she do to keep Spike away from her superpowered daughter?

I don't think so since he didn't kill her when she attacked him with an axe or even attack her. Since both Kristine Sutherland and Caroline Lagerfeld who plays his own mother were explicitly stated to have been cast because they physically resembled Sarah it's not unreasonable to assume that Joyce resembled his mum physically and that and the fact she acted motherly towards him was enough to see her in that light. I think the making gestures that he would do something unpleasant to her was just to troll Angel and rub in the fact he wasn't able to get in.

Buffy was standing right there. He's brief moment of advantage was gone. He tried to kill Buffy multiple times, so I don't see how your casting considerations weigh in on it at all. If Buffy's looks didn't stop him from all he did, Joyce kinda looking like her wouldn't, either.

Their conversation got interrupted by Angel, and Buffy only knew he was there because she was on the phone at the exact moment he turned up and she heard his voice. If Spike wanted Joyce dead, she would've been dead within moments. Instead, Joyce has time to make two cocoas and Spike gets comfortable enough to retell his tale of woe. Joyce clearly doesn't feel threatened by him, and she is more worried about Angel.

See above. Joyce has time to boil some water before Angel and Buffy arrive. So... 3 or 4 minutes.

The book Spike needs is in Buffy's house. He didn't kill the clerk until he had what he wanted, either. I'm not even saying he would have, but there's just as much to support her would than he wouldn't.

Spike left town for the majority of Season 3 and even Buffy barely visited Joyce in Season 4.

You could argue why were Willow and Xander so upset over Joyce's death when they barely spent any time with her?

There's demonstrable proof they had dinners together. The gang was always at Buffy's house in S1-S3. They were there frequently in S5.

Anyone can think what they want. What gets me is the volumes of meta written on things that have little-to-no textual basis. The OP is about whether or not Spike had changed before the soul and has subsequently veered off into meta and meta of meta based off one throwaway line from an unreliable narrator than the bulk of the shows.

This is the same stuff that happened between School Hard and Fool For Love. The writing sucked and failed when it was kiboshed that Angel was Spike's sire, even though it's pretty clear Spike was speaking figuratively in SH. Then again in LMPTM. The writing failed there again because it Joss'd all the meta people thought up from FFL to that episode. Most of what is written about it was based on fanon, not solid material support. Saw a link to a tumblr post regarding Spike and Dru, questioning Giles' description of Dru as his sometimes paramour. Fanon is they were devout lovers, but that's all it is. Dru cheats on him frequently. The only time it's suggested she didn't was when she was sick in S2. The writing didn't fail. It wasn't a gaffe. The bulk of the text shows she wasn't all that into him.[/quote][/quote]

 

[katmobile]

I don't assume it because we don't see it. It's because we don't see it and NOTHING IMPLIES IT. If they hang out, why does he demand money in Checkpoint? Not only that, he's completely annoyed by their presence.



There can be a list made of the things Spike mentions that aren't true. Unless you think he was some hapless slave in S6.

What exactly would she do to keep Spike away from her superpowered daughter?



Buffy was standing right there. He's brief moment of advantage was gone. He tried to kill Buffy multiple times, so I don't see how your casting considerations weigh in on it at all. If Buffy's looks didn't stop him from all he did, Joyce kinda looking like her wouldn't, either.



See above. Joyce has time to boil some water before Angel and Buffy arrive. So... 3 or 4 minutes.

The book Spike needs is in Buffy's house. He didn't kill the clerk until he had what he wanted, either. I'm not even saying he would have, but there's just as much to support her would than he wouldn't.





There's demonstrable proof they had dinners together. The gang was always at Buffy's house in S1-S3. They were there frequently in S5.

Anyone can think what they want. What gets me is the volumes of meta written on things that have little-to-no textual basis. The OP is about whether or not Spike had changed before the soul and has subsequently veered off into meta and meta of meta based off one throwaway line from an unreliable narrator than the bulk of the shows.

This is the same stuff that happened between School Hard and Fool For Love. The writing sucked and failed when it was kiboshed that Angel was Spike's sire, even though it's pretty clear Spike was speaking figuratively in SH. Then again in LMPTM. The writing failed there again because it Joss'd all the meta people thought up from FFL to that episode. Most of what is written about it was based on fanon, not solid material support. Saw a link to a tumblr post regarding Spike and Dru, questioning Giles' description of Dru as his sometimes paramour. Fanon is they were devout lovers, but that's all it is. Dru cheats on him frequently. The only time it's suggested she didn't was when she was sick in S2. The writing didn't fail. It wasn't a gaffe. The bulk of the text shows she wasn't all that into him.

[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
You're so keen dismiss things as fanon and then critise the over analysis of lines. Yeah that's what we've got as subtext. If you don't like it it's fine but your perspective ain't the only one and you're writing between the lines as much as anyone else.

 

[vampmogs]

I don't assume it because we don't see it. It's because we don't see it and NOTHING IMPLIES IT. If they hang out, why does he demand money in Checkpoint? Not only that, he's completely annoyed by their presence.

Yeah, I really have to agree with this. I must say this is my first time in fandom I've ever seen people believe Spike and Joyce hung out offscreen. As @NothingVentured says, Spike is very visibly annoyed by Joyce's presence in Checkpoint and Joyce is nervous to be near him. They soon begin bonding over Passions but their initial reactions to one another give no indication whatsoever that they've seen each other since Lover's Walk, much less socialised. In Something Blue Spike also insults Joyce and sarcastically calls her a "genius."

The only time it could feasibly make sense for them to hang out at all (taking into consideration how they acted towards one another in Checkpoint) would be sometime between Checkpoint and Crush, but that doesn't make sense either. Buffy was already living at home by that point and there's no way Buffy would be comfortable with Spike hanging around her house having cup of teas with her mother.

I don't see how or when Spike/Joyce could have feasibly socialised offscreen that fits with everything we saw. Spike's statement that she "always had a cuppa for him" could be an embellishment or it could simply be the truth - "always" being the two and only times Spike and Joyce socialised.

That aside, I did love the Spike/Joyce scenes and I thought the actors had a wonderful chemistry. They played off each other so well.

I do always wonder how Spike would've felt about Joyce had he heard her comments about him in Crush, though. I think Spike had probably convinced himself that Joyce was quite fond of him and was clearly trying to curry her good favour earlier in the episode to have an "in" with Buffy. Had he heard her call him "twisted" and "dangerous" I think that would've been a real blow. I always wonder if he'd still have shown up with flowers in Forever in spite of that or if it'd turn him off her.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

To elaborate from earlier. To elaborate from my original post; remember, Angelus would have been trained by the Order of Aurelius, who saw humanity as an infection upon the Demonic, and he would have been taught to purge himself of his human ways, to make himself a better servant for the Old Ones. Spike, was trained by Angelus at the peak of his hedonism. He was never indoctrinated by the order. The problem is, we don’t know anything about the Order, or its history. It could be either an ancient bona fide cult of the Old Ones that passes on the last orders of the Arch-Demon Maloker-Archaeus, or it could be a reformation movement, in which the Prophet Aurelius was called to direct vampires of his age into a new way of life. For all we know, Vampires outside the order have no loyalty to the Old Ones, and exist on the margins of human society. Someone like Russell Winters, whose malice is basically at human levels. We also don’t understand Demon psychology. If humans were stronger and bigger than Vampires, and Vampires consistently met bigger, stronger humans, would Vampires change their tactics? Would they hunt in groups? Would they seek out weaker prey? I suggest the same has been conditioned in Spike. His demon understands great pain to occur when he attacks humans, therefore, be submissive around humans, to avoid pain. I’m not saying Spike is a good person, just his humanity can better surface when he understands himself as the weakest member of the team, something Vampires don’t normally get to experience.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I don't see how or when Spike/Joyce could have feasibly socialised offscreen that fits with everything we saw. Spike's statement that she "always had a cuppa for him" could be an embellishment or it could simply be the truth - "always" being the two and only times Spike and Joyce socialised.

We don't see him drinking anything in "Crush", but I interpret his line as him as feeling though he could always come to Joyce for a cuppa and a bit of motherly care. It's like if you eat lunch with someone two days in a row. Now it has suddenly become this thing that you do.

To me, it seems clear that not everything Spike does is a means to an end. His visit to Joyce in "Crush" is clearly an attempt to ingratiate himself. It is kinda like Dawn does in "No Place Like Home." But when he decides to halt his hunt for Willow's spell book and ingredients in "Lovers Walk" and when he begins discussing Passions with her in "Checkpoint", he seems to be genuinely enjoying the attention that she lays on him. Her concern for him in "Lovers Walk" is quite striking.

"Checkpoint" is a long time after "Lovers Walk", and is Joyce coming to his place, which is a bit of a reversal. He was hanging out in his crypt, not looking to spill his heart to anyone. We don't want our mothers to hover around all the time. But as soon as she starts talking enthusiastically about his favourite show, he remembers how much he likes her.

I think if he imagined himself spending time with her after "Crush." I imagine he would be heard by her (quite reasonable) judgement of him as a prospective man for her daughter, because he is used to her being nonjudgmental and supportive of him.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Not everything Spike says is the truth, but not everything he says is a disgusting lie either. What reasons would he have to lie about occasionally hanging out with Joyce in Forever ? None whatsoever. We do, however, have sufficient reason to believe there were on friendly enough terms, and that they did hang out on a few occasions.