I can’t really answer your question, as I’m not a huge fan of Bangel myself. I popped in to comment because I noticed you just joined the Buffy Boards, and I wanted to say welcome!! hello!!! I’m a new member as well (the newest one before you), but I’ve been listening to my friends talk about the Buffy Boards for a long while now. You should introduce yourself by making a thread in the “check in” forum. You can find it at the top of the “forums” page. I hope you have fun!!
Neither is good but Angel is the least worse, mostly because every single friendly character and the majority of the foes are better matches than Spike, but overall Buffy's taste in men is a compelling argument for being gay.
hoponlilmamaTeam Fuffy, Briley, or new random normal stable guy for Buff! ;)
Here's one: from Buffy's perspective she always wanted to know more about Angel, his life, his history, what he liked and wanted. That was clear because they talked a lot about stuff; specifically relationship stuff.
That...just wasn't the case with her and Spike. Buffy didn't seem to be interested in the man that William was or used to be. Spike might've been useful, hot, 'convenient' , a strong warrior, but he was never fascinating to Buffy, she never showed much interest in the man she, supposed, was in love with. She never was shown needing to know
Which is why I don't believe in the relationship or take it remotely seriously from her end, there's no investment by the titular character, the fans care more. All a bit sad, really.
I've got little love for Bangel long term but I can at least see that Buffy was invested in Angel and curious about Angel's life right up til S7 when she's quizzing Faith about being in Angel's mind or lighting up/ jumping him the moment she sees him.
I at least believe that she believes in Bangel, I never got that with Spuffy.
Here's one: from Buffy's perspective she always wanted to know more about Angel, his life, his history, what he liked and wanted. That was clear because they talked a lot about stuff; specifically relationship stuff.
That...just wasn't the case with her and Spike. Buffy didn't seem to be interested in the man that William was or used to be. Spike might've been useful, hot, 'convenient' , a strong warrior, but he was never fascinating to Buffy, she never showed much interest in the man she, supposed, was in love with. She never was shown needing to know
Which is why I don't believe in the relationship or take it remotely seriously from her end, there's no investment by the titular character, the fans care more. All a bit sad, really.
I've got little love for Bangel long term but I can at least see that Buffy was invested in Angel and curious about Angel's life right up til S7 when she's quizzing Faith about being in Angel's mind or lighting up/ jumping him the moment she sees him.
I at least believe that she believes in Bangel, I never got that with Spuffy.
True. I hadn't really noticed that before, but yes, she isn't invested in Spike. That may well be the best reasoning for showing that Buffy loved Angel and not Spike I have seen. I guess you can add to that that Buffy, when Angel wasn't around, was still thinking about him and missing him. When Spike wasn't around, she essentially forgot he even existed.
What's weird is that Buffy is invested in Spike in S7, but in a very utilitarian way. He's a strong warrior, he's got her back, he can be a good man. This is a) baffling given his murder!trigger that Buffy doesn't really address or seem to care about and b) along with Spike's declarations of love gives the illusion of something intimate and special but in reality all Buffy needs is for Spike to 'punch that thing'/'kill that thing' and she'll be happy that his 'soul' matters. (Because he got a soul for her, doncha know).
And, y'know what, his soul did matter, his soul powered a magical sky laser/bomb thing that blew up the Hellmouth. Yay! Investment paid off as those 'post-hoc'-ists would say.
NotASlayerNothing like sheer, unadulterated luck to counteract suicidally stupid planning.
Here's one: from Buffy's perspective she always wanted to know more about Angel, his life, his history, what he liked and wanted. That was clear because they talked a lot about stuff; specifically relationship stuff.
That...just wasn't the case with her and Spike. Buffy didn't seem to be interested in the man that William was or used to be. Spike might've been useful, hot, 'convenient' , a strong warrior, but he was never fascinating to Buffy, she never showed much interest in the man she, supposed, was in love with. She never was shown needing to know
Which is why I don't believe in the relationship or take it remotely seriously from her end, there's no investment by the titular character, the fans care more. All a bit sad, really.
I've got little love for Bangel long term but I can at least see that Buffy was invested in Angel and curious about Angel's life right up til S7 when she's quizzing Faith about being in Angel's mind or lighting up/ jumping him the moment she sees him.
I at least believe that she believes in Bangel, I never got that with Spuffy.
I actually really agree with you here, but I would like to add the opinion that Buffy's lack of actual affection for Spike is arguably part of what makes them work on a narrative level. Buffy doesn't like to think of herself as someone who would have casual sex/sex without love, even while she's doing it. It's the kind of contradiction I can believe: she wants to see herself one way and then acts differently. And the majority of the Spuffy relationship also occurs while Buffy is at her most depressed, so showing her having to confront the things she doesn't like about herself (such as the fact that she likes and wants sex with Spike but not a lasting romantic relationship with him) makes sense.
What's weird is that Buffy is invested in Spike in S7, but in a very utilitarian way. He's a strong warrior, he's got her back, he can be a good man. This is a) baffling given his murder!trigger that Buffy doesn't really address or seem to care about and b) along with Spike's declarations of love gives the illusion of something intimate and special but in reality all Buffy needs is for Spike to 'punch that thing'/'kill that thing' and she'll be happy that his 'soul' matters. (Because he got a soul for her, doncha know).
Yes! Buffy's "affection" in S7 is often still an extension of her viewing him as "convenient" in S6--it's just a different kind of convenience.
S7's characterization of Buffy often falls flat for me because the narrative never seems to challenge her; in S6 it is often the point that she is reacting badly as a result of trauma, but S7 often presents it like she is "back to normal." She isn't, she's just coping better externally. As long as Spike plays the role of "helpful vampire with a soul" that Angel was filling before, then Buffy will act like everything is fine. Whether or not Spike is actually helpful, and whether or not Buffy actually cares, is irrelevant to her; she's fighting a war.
I actually really agree with you here, but I would like to add the opinion that Buffy's lack of actual affection for Spike is arguably part of what makes them work on a narrative level.
Sure, I also think it works in S6 because everybody is lying to themselves. Buffy is no different, she just realizes the truth a bit earlier than any of the others.
Makes it really hard to invest in if you're all about Buffy. I'm not a Bangel (or a Briley) shipper, but its obvious to me that she was really into them at certain points; as in she was happy being around them even if, on some level, she is in denial about part of their relationship.
So, she has that same kind of denial about Spike- I think- hence her ignoring the trigger- but there's none of the 'happy upside' from her point of view, Spike's presence doesn't seem to make her better, just confused and a bit extra-stressed. Maybe that's cognitive discomfort, denial, trauma, or a mix of all three but its not...strong shipper material, at least not from her end. All the overt declarations of love are from Spike. Too one-sided for me but I notice that its the appeal for many Spuffy shippers; their focus in mostly on Spike and what he wants/deserves.
CardboardGhostI don't quite agree that there's nothing to invest in from Buffy's side, but I otherwise agree with this analysis and think trying to split hairs would probably derail this thread too much.
Fair statement. I personally don't find Spuffy's 'relationship' better entertainment, it merely made for a difficult watch. The obvious attempts by certain writers to pair them together is evident.
As for who was better, of all of her love interests, Riley was her healthiest. But they had to go and perform some ridiculous character assassination on him. And I do like Bangel (though that wasn't without it's problems!).
But what the series shows us is Buffy and relationships with vampires are kinda doomed.
Neither is good but Angel is the least worse, mostly because every single friendly character and the majority of the foes are better matches than Spike, but overall Buffy's taste in men is a compelling argument for being gay.
Fair statement. I personally don't find Spuffy's 'relationship' better entertainment, it merely made for a difficult watch. The obvious attempts by certain writers to pair them together is evident.
As for who was better, of all of her love interests, Riley was her healthiest. But they had to go and perform some ridiculous character assassination on him. And I do like Bangel (though that wasn't without it's problems!).
But what the series shows us is Buffy and relationships with vampires are kinda doomed.
I think if we were going for entertainment wise Spuffy is my pick, mainly because of the whole enemies to lovers thing. Angel is fine, but many fans think that he is insufferable on BTVS and is better on his own show. While Buffy is insufferable on Angel and should stick to her own show as well.
They were just more entertaining in my opinion, but I wasn't sold on them working out longtime, until he got his soul. He was just really supportive, while Angel felt more like the scoobies or Buffy's fake friends.
Here's one: from Buffy's perspective she always wanted to know more about Angel, his life, his history, what he liked and wanted. That was clear because they talked a lot about stuff; specifically relationship stuff.
That...just wasn't the case with her and Spike. Buffy didn't seem to be interested in the man that William was or used to be. Spike might've been useful, hot, 'convenient' , a strong warrior, but he was never fascinating to Buffy, she never showed much interest in the man she, supposed, was in love with. She never was shown needing to know
Which is why I don't believe in the relationship or take it remotely seriously from her end, there's no investment by the titular character, the fans care more. All a bit sad, really.
I've got little love for Bangel long term but I can at least see that Buffy was invested in Angel and curious about Angel's life right up til S7 when she's quizzing Faith about being in Angel's mind or lighting up/ jumping him the moment she sees him.
I at least believe that she believes in Bangel, I never got that with Spuffy.
You know what I see that, but in season 7 its almost like they were setting that up with Spike's mommy issues backstory thingy. They just never got around to it because that whole season is a mess and they opted for isolating the characters and making everyone insufferable.
I think if we were going for entertainment wise Spuffy is my pick, mainly because of the whole enemies to lovers thing. Angel is fine, but many fans think that he is insufferable on BTVS and is better on his own show. While Buffy is insufferable on Angel and should stick to her own show as well.
I could see this if Spike weren't an entitled manipulative abuser throughout his run. I never find abusive relationships entertaining or compelling. If a show is too into its abusive relationships I just turn the channel.
Unfortunately, Buffy-Spike in S5 & S6 & S7 is a classically abusive relationship. S5 is Spike stalking Buffy & her incomprehensibly forgiving response encourages him. S6 is a master class in how to abuse & control a young damaged woman. S7 is the result: A trauma bonded codependent abuse victim trying to deal with the abuser who came back into her life after she happily forgot about him.
Interesting multi-season storyline for a supposedly feminist show.
Angel isn't fine but he isn't quite as terrible as Spike. Buffy would have been far better off without either vampire.
The insufferability on each other's shows happens because the writers and showrunners on the shows are different and have different views of the characters. So they really do come across as kinda insufferable.
Angel is far better when he isn't around Buffy. And, for that matter, the same applies for post S4 Spike as he was a vastly improved character on Angel S5.
Unfortunately, Buffy-Spike in S5 & S6 & S7 is a classically abusive relationship. S5 is Spike stalking Buffy & her incomprehensibly forgiving response encourages him. S6 is a master class in how to abuse & control a young damaged woman. S7 is the result: A trauma bonded codependent abuse victim trying to deal with the abuser who came back into her life after she happily forgot about him.
Absolutely. If the end result is the abuser getting stomped by his victim, that's entertaining! But otherwise I get zero entertainment value from watching a woman being stalked and abused. I am funny that way.
I could see this if Spike weren't an entitled manipulative abuser throughout his run. I never find abusive relationships entertaining or compelling. If a show is too into its abusive relationships I just turn the channel.
Unfortunately, Buffy-Spike in S5 & S6 & S7 is a classically abusive relationship. S5 is Spike stalking Buffy & her incomprehensibly forgiving response encourages him. S6 is a master class in how to abuse & control a young damaged woman. S7 is the result: A trauma bonded codependent abuse victim trying to deal with the abuser who came back into her life after she happily forgot about him.
Interesting multi-season storyline for a supposedly feminist show.
Angel isn't fine but he isn't quite as terrible as Spike. Buffy would have been far better off without either vampire.
The insufferability on each other's shows happens because the writers and showrunners on the shows are different and have different views of the characters. So they really do come across as kinda insufferable.
I agree. This whole show felt white feminist coded. It's like the writers got jealous of Buffy's character tried to 'knock her down a few pegs'. That's what it feels like to me. They can't write good relationships for Buffy, it's only good for the boyfriends.
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