Bangel or Spuffy? #2

[Sternbeeere]

I like your post and the way you've thought things through from Buffy's perspective. You don't think it's a factory that both Buffy and Faith are hetrosexual? I wish Buffy and Faith were closer and could lean on each other more for support and share there commonalities and become best friends/sisters. If they were bi or gay they would make a great couple but both of them choose male partners, except Buffy that one time with Satsu.

I do not know if they are. After talking about Bi-/Pan- Sexuality on that board in an other thread and also after writing what i wrote as well as reading about Faith, i am not sure. Especially about Buffy. I think that Buffy has a hard time to admit things sometimes, (which again, Spike points out to her, but she cannot open up.) This might also be the case about her sexuality, which might as well be bisexual. Faith called Buffy "girlfriend" and wrote a heart on the window. Also the kiss Faith gave Buffy on the forehead originally was supposed to be a kiss on the lips. Plus, Faith states in the comics, that she will not go down on Georgina, but who knows if she had gone down on Buffy if there was a chance. Of course this is only speculation, since Fuffy is non-conon.
If either Buffy or Faith are heterosexual i would wish an other character for Buffy, who is similar to Spike, but a bit more solid and whom she can open up with.

 

[bespangeled]

If they were bi or gay they would make a great couple but both of them choose male partners, except Buffy that one time with Satsu.

Well, you don't until you do - Willow was with guys until she fell in love with Tara. Besides, this might well be more of a Faith-love than a complete change of sexuality.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Let's remember that this is a Bangel v Spuffy thread 🙂

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that I didn't say anything disrepectful to your ship so I don't understand why your calling me out on my comment. As for hate sex and your other comments, I'm not going to bother answering that because it's all perspective and ours are different. I respect yours, it would be nice if you could do me the same favour.

NeonNightLight was equally respectful to your opinion as you were to theirs. No need to make it personal.

🙂

 

[Bluebird]

I personally don't see a lot of chemistry between James and Sarah when I watch the show. It really distracts me how stilted they can be around each other. Angel and Spike have more chemistry.

Another reason for me preferring Bangel over Spuffy is because of the metaphors, or lack of.
Bangel existed to make a point, the metaphor of the bad boyfriend. It was done very well, even if the curse was a bit hokey. Angel's loss of his soul makes for a great metaphor, the both of them feeling like everything was perfect and how happy they were only for it to switch unexpectedly. It's seen as one of the great TV moments.
My issue with Spuffy, and some of season 6, is that the show seemed to forget it was using metaphors to make these points before this. I saw soulless Spike as the type of guy who stalks the girl he's obsessed with, and that that is something some people (mostly women) have dealt with. But everything was so literal, right up to and including the AR. Surely there was a smarter way to play that whole relationship.

So yeah, I don't necessarily dislike Spuffy, I just thought a lot of it was incredibly badly written. I think Spuffy is therefore quite unfortunate where it's placed in the series run, because there is a bit of a consensus that the later seasons weren't up to the same quality.

 

[sparethetragic]

I personally don't see a lot of chemistry between James and Sarah when I watch the show. It really distracts me how stilted they can be around each other. Angel and Spike have more chemistry.

I think J/S were at their best when antagonistic with one another. It's when they attempt to go from that to intimacy (of whatever sort) that it lost it's magic. I feel it's in a similar place when James is opposite of David. They are at their best when rivals, at odds with one another.

 

[Priceless]

I personally don't see a lot of chemistry between James and Sarah when I watch the show. It really distracts me how stilted they can be around each other. Angel and Spike have more chemistry.

This really surprises me, because one of the reasons I love Spuffy is the pure chemical reaction of the characters. They may not have even liked each other off screen, but on screen they seemed electric and the sex scenes were hot 😉

David and Sarah may or may not have been close off screen, but they were written as too idealised for me. They were teenage angsty romance personified, which at first I found charming, and then just annoying, and eventually I just wanted it to end as it felt like it was dragging on and Buffy would be a grown woman trapped in a teenage fantasy. The viewer was growing up, as were the characters, so the show had to change to accomodate

 

[bespangeled]

This really surprises me, because one of the reasons I love Spuffy is the pure chemical reaction of the characters. They may not have even liked each other off screen, but on screen they seemed electric and the sex scenes were hot 😉

They did like each other - SMG said that JM was the smartest man she ever met, and he's talked about how amazing Sarah is. I like their chemistry - their energy. It got dark and bad, but it was never boring.

David and Sarah may or may not have been close off screen, but they were written as too idealised for me. They were teenage angsty romance personified, which at first I found charming, and then just annoying, and eventually I just wanted it to end as it felt like it was dragging on and Buffy would be a grown woman trapped in a teenage fantasy. The viewer was growing up, as were the characters, so the show had to change to accomodate

I do agree the DB should have left earlier - in part because he was so much better in his own show. Yeah, much as I love early Bangel they kinda wrote themselves into a corner there. It was romantic and tragic, but then I just wanted them apart. Spike worked well with Buffy simply because there was almost no romance, and he was willing to subordinate himself to her. Angel had a lot of romance and he was always equal if not superior. While it worked in terms of a real relationship, it just limited too many options for Buffy.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Another reason for me preferring Bangel over Spuffy is because of the metaphors, or lack of.

They absolutely forgot what metaphors were. Instead we got Martiphors. I prefer the former.

I personally don't see a lot of chemistry between James and Sarah when I watch the show. It really distracts me how stilted they can be around each other. Angel and Spike have more chemistry.

I think J/S were at their best when antagonistic with one another. It's when they attempt to go from that to intimacy (of whatever sort) that it lost it's magic.

See I agree with the latter person. SMG and JM had great antagonistic chemistry. It's once they the got intimate that I just didn't see it. I'm always surprised that the two couldn't take an episode still where both of them looked comfortable. Yes I know still photography is weird. But one of them always looks like they don't want to be there. Or it just looks plain weird and uncomfortable.

 

[Bluebird]

David and Sarah may or may not have been close off screen, but they were written as too idealised for me. They were teenage angsty romance personified, which at first I found charming, and then just annoying, and eventually I just wanted it to end as it felt like it was dragging on and Buffy would be a grown woman trapped in a teenage fantasy. The viewer was growing up, as were the characters, so the show had to change to accomodate

It definitely was an idealised teenage romance which is why I loved the Angelus storyline so much. It suddenly reminded Buffy that she wasn't living in a fairytale. But yeah, everything has its time and Angel needed to move on.

My feeling is that Bangel was much more involved in the plot and the character development of Buffy herself. I just can't see how Spuffy furthers anything other than Spike's story. That's all well and good if you like Spike but the Bangel/Angelus story was woven around almost every character. I appreciate seeing the fallout of Angelus, how it affects Giles, Willow, and Xander too, all the gang is involved in that relationship's story. I felt that Spuffy helped add towards the disconnect between the characters. We were with Buffy and her feelings the whole way through her sorrow of losing Angel and the acceptance of killing him etc. There is more emotional investment in the storyline that came out of their relationship.

 

[Snyder]

I think chemistry (or lack of it) becomes an issue only when the actors are not so... 'good', when they are true professionals they can and must have chemistry even with their worst enemy. They are actors, who they like or not shouldn't matter imo. Bangel was saved from this point of view because SMG and DB liked each other in real life, otherwise with Boreanaz' bad acting it would have been even a worse mess than it was. On the other hand the fact that they liked each other may be one of the factor that makes Bangel so indigestive to me because every time Sarah had a scene with David she played Buffy like the dumb 15 years old in love she was at the beginning, like she never really grew up if you get my meaning. With Marsters chemistry wasn't really needed until season 7 because they had to act as enemies or forced allies-friends-lovers (forced on Buffy's part only). But yeah, I saw something off on season 7 though I can't fault JM's acting, I think it came from Sarah may be because she didn't like him stealing her show?

 

[white avenger]

I agree and for me (Spuffy) relationship is and always will be one of unequals.

But couldn't that be said about Buffy and every real relationship that she has had in the 7 Seasons that the show was on the air. The whole mythology of the show is that the Slayer is superior to all vampires, so neither Angel nor Spike is truly her equal, and Riley (not part of the thread, I know) certainly never even came close. And, no, I'm not talking exclusively about physical abilities. As far as we know, Angel had no more experience in a romantic relationship that Buffy ever did, and, while Spike's affair with Dru lasted the better part of a century, I'm not really sure that actual romance ever really entered into it. Yes, Spike did, I think, genuinely love Dru, but she never saw him as anything more than a substitute for Angel. None of them, not Spike, not Angel, and not Riley, ever seemed to have had what would be called a real, sincere, romantic relationship outside the show, so no one was Buffy's equal.

Arguably, the closest thing to an equal who might have had a relationship with, according to the mythology of the Buffyverse, was Satsu, (another non-thread character, I know) and more than a few fans, myself included, feel that something quite real could have developed there except for their separation reducing it to a couple of one night trysts.

As for Spike deferring to Buffy's wishes, that's what most relationships are about. If you truly love them, you put their wishes and welfare ahead of your own.

 

[NeonNightLight]

But yeah, I saw something off on season 7 though I can't fault JM's acting, I think it came from Sarah may be because she didn't like him stealing her show?

From what I've seen of interviews and quotes I've read, SMG was just tired of the show and direction it was taking since the beginning of season 6. I've never heard about any animosity between SMG and JM, though?
 

As for Spike deferring to Buffy's wishes, that's what most relationships are about. If you truly love them, you put their wishes and welfare ahead of your own.

Except Spike is utterly devoted to her to the point of worship. Relationships are also both people challenging each other and not allowing your partner to accept the worst form of themselves. Such as in Amends, Buffy challenges Angel to be strong and fight, and when Angel leaves Buffy, he is encouraging her to grow and find more normalcy in her life. In season 7, Spike took Buffy's side in everything, when he really should have sat down with her at least once and discussed the flaws in her leadership. Buffy and Angel were always more in an equal standing than Spike and Buffy ever were.

 

[Snyder]

From what I've seen of interviews and quotes I've read, SMG was just tired of the show and direction it was taking since the beginning of season 6. I've never heard about any animosity between SMG and JM, though?

I read those things as well. yeah SMG was tired of being Buffy and wanted a change and this explains her decision to quit Buffy but about her not liking the direction of those last 2 seasons I can't help thinking that the fact that she had started her relationship with her future husband was influencing her (coincidentally she hasn't done other shows or movies of the CI genre) so I believe her comments were more political than true. In s7 though I can see a change in her, partly because it's the character that's changed but I don't know... it's a feeling I have, may be based on some of her latest comments. She clearly holds a grudge against JM and from what I know they haven't been in contact since the show, so it must be something happened when they worked together. I've also heard comments that she acted like a primadonna so I think that it could be because in the end JM was more acclaimed than she was. But it's all just a deduction ahah

Except Spike is utterly devoted to her to the point of worship. Relationships are also both people challenging each other and not allowing your partner to accept the worst form of themselves. Such as in Amends, Buffy challenges Angel to be strong and fight, and when Angel leaves Buffy, he is encouraging her to grow and find more normalcy in her life. In season 7, Spike took Buffy's side in everything, when he really should have sat down with her at least once and discussed the flaws in her leadership. Buffy and Angel were always more in an equal standing than Spike and Buffy ever were.

Being supportive and respectful of someone's decisions doesn't mean being devoted to the point of worship imo. And how is it that Buffy's speech to Angel is seen as a challenge while Spike's speech to Buffy in Touched is seen as him siding with her in everything? Also Spike in s7 doesn't always side with Buffy. In Dirty Girls he is the first to tell her that she could be leading them all in a trap but ultimately Buffy is the leader and he respects her and her decisions (and btw he isn't her partner). To me this is being equals, not two people slapping each other because they disagree.

 

[NeonNightLight]

I read those things as well. yeah SMG was tired of being Buffy and wanted a change and this explains her decision to quit Buffy but about her not liking the direction of those last 2 seasons I can't help thinking that the fact that she had started her relationship with her future husband was influencing her (coincidentally she hasn't done other shows or movies of the CI genre) so I believe her comments were more political than true. In s7 though I can see a change in her, partly because it's the character that's changed but I don't know... it's a feeling I have, may be based on some of her latest comments. She clearly holds a grudge against JM and from what I know they haven't been in contact since the show, so it must be something happened when they worked together. I've also heard comments that she acted like a primadonna so I think that it could be because in the end JM was more acclaimed than she was. But it's all just a deduction ahah

Hmm, yeah, I guess we can never truly know, it's all speculation. I heard SMG is very dedicated when acting, and I have read quotes where JM calls SMG a wonderful person and that he sees her a sister. But maybe that's me loving the show so much and wanting all the cast members to have great relationships with each other in real life too LOL.

Being supportive and respectful of someone's decisions doesn't mean being devoted to the point of worship imo. And how is it that Buffy's speech to Angel is seen as a challenge while Spike's speech to Buffy in Touched is seen as him siding with her in everything? Also Spike in s7 doesn't always side with Buffy. In Dirty Girls he is the first to tell her that she could be leading them all in a trap but ultimately Buffy is the leader and he respects her and her decisions (and btw he isn't her partner). To me this is being equals, not two people slapping each other because they disagree.

Angel wanted to give up and kill himself, Buffy challenged him to fight and be strong and live in her speech. She clearly lets him know she doesn't agree with what he's doing.

Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard and it's painful and it's every day. It's what we have to do and we can do it together, but if you're too much
of a coward for that then burn!
Buffy: Let the sun kill you! If I can't convince you you have a place in the world, then I don't know what will.So die. But don't expect me to
watch, and don't expect me to mourn for you

To me, Spike is just giving a nice speech to Buffy, expressing his feelings, and to help her feel better about herself. When does he question her actions or tell her what she is doing is wrong? Telling her that something could possibly be a trap is neither of those, and even that was just one offhand comment which he didn't even try to push further.

 

[bespangeled]

it's a feeling I have, may be based on some of her latest comments. She clearly holds a grudge against JM and from what I know they haven't been in contact since the show, so it must be something happened when they worked together.

What comments are you talking about?
 

When does he question her actions or tell her what she is doing is wrong?

He doesn't - it's not his place to do so in his eyes. Spike's form of atonement does not include any critique. even if it's needed. he trusts her absolutely, and he doesn't trust himself at all.

 

[Snyder]

Hmm, yeah, I guess we can never truly know, it's all speculation. I heard SMG is very dedicated when acting, and I have read quotes where JM calls SMG a wonderful person and that he sees her a sister. But maybe that's me loving the show so much and wanting all the cast members to have great relationships with each other in real life too LOL.

yeah that would be nice but let's be honest, it's unlikely to happen. They are just like us, they are bent to like some people and dislike others for whatever reason. And we have to make a distinction about comments made when the show was running and those made later. At the time of course all actors praised the others, they had to work together and it wouldn't have been smart to say bad things about a colleague. But later? Yeah, JM has always praised her as an actress but there have been hints about her personality. Once he said something about her giving a party and not inviting him, another time it was her primadonna attitude while shooting the episode in s7 where he was upside down. And the fact that SMG and JM, unlike others, never meet is telling imo.

Angel wanted to give up and kill himself, Buffy challenged him to fight and be strong and live in her speech. She clearly lets him know she doesn't agree with what he's doing.
To me, Spike is just giving a nice speech to Buffy, expressing his feelings, and to help her feel better about herself.

Just like Angel in Amends, Buffy in Touched wanted to give up and just like Buffy did with Angel, Spike challenged Buffy to fight and be strong. The scenes are very differently shot, I agree, in Touched there is no melodrama, Buffy isn't faking a suicide attempt and Spike isn't crying and pulling his hair, and there is no slapping and punching, it's all very composed and beautiful, but the ultimate goal is very much the same: making the other believe in themself and find the strenght to go on fighting. The main difference though is that in Amends Buffy fails (it's the snow that stops Angel, not her words) while in Touched Spike succeeded

When does he question her actions or tell her what she is doing is wrong? Telling her that something could possibly be a trap is neither of those, and even that was just one offhand comment which he didn't even try to push further.

Unsouled Spike often questioned and criticized Buffy but souled? when could he have told her that she was wrong? he spent almost all s7 being tortured and triggered by the First, he surely had no way to even know what Buffy was up to. And when should he have told her she was wrong? when was she wrong? that scene I mentioned is the only instance Buffy made a mistake and yeah he didn't flat out tell her that she was wrong just like no one else did, they all expressed their fear that her decision wasn't wise but none of them pushed further and all of them eventually followed her because in that moment no one could know that she was wrong and she was the leader afterall

What comments are you talking about?

Pointing out that she prefers Angel over Spike, that DB kissed better than JM... I mean, don't get me wrong she is entitled to have her opinions but how she expresses them publicily not even caring that she has a husband or that she can antagonize some fans makes me thing that those comments are subtly intended to strike JM and this combined with some things Marsters said and with the fact that those two are possibly the only two Buffy actors that never meet... yeah I definitely see a grudge there. But as I said it's a feeling I have lol

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah, JM has always praised her as an actress but there have been hints about her personality. Once he said something about her giving a party and not inviting him, another time it was her primadonna attitude while shooting the episode in s7 where he was upside down. And the fact that SMG and JM, unlike others, never meet is telling imo.

The party story - Marsters said that when he first joined that cast, Sarah went out and sat with him and told him that she sometimes had gatherings, and not to feel hurt because she never invited the short term cast members. Shortly after that, he was saved from being killed off, and he was invited to all the parties which he went to.

I'm sure that he and SMG got on each others nerves, but AH also said that she was glad not to be working with SMG. They like each other - though none of the cast was invited to any of the various weddings so they aren't all that close.

Pointing out that she prefers Angel over Spike, that DB kissed better than JM... I mean, don't get me wrong she is entitled to have her opinions but how she expresses them publicily not even caring that she has a husband or that she can antagonize some fans makes me thing that those comments are subtly intended to strike JM and this combined with some things Marsters said and with the fact that those two are possibly the only two Buffy actors that never meet... yeah I definitely see a grudge there. But as I said it's a feeling I have lol

It's no secret that SMG and DB got very close - there are some who say that's why DB's first marriage failed. She was really upset when he left the show, so I think this has a lot more to do with DB than with Marsters.

I don't think any of them really socialize together - the occasional meetings are news enough to post pictures. Sarah didn't like the last seasons, but according to AH, Sarah wanted to leave the show after the 3rd season.

Marsters said that he tends to avoid the Hollywood scene because it messes with his head and he prefers to be around people who will slap him down when he gets obnoxious - that's why he doesn't keep in touch with DB or SMG. But he has done some independent movies with Amber Benson, and they're friends. He's done some acting with Charisma, and ASH, and some other cast members. Mostly he seems to be into music and theater, while they're more into glitz. It's like any work situation - some people you really like, and others you work with.

Going by these outtakes, they seemed to get along pretty well on set.

 

[Snyder]

Going by these outtakes, they seemed to get along pretty well on set.

which is why I think their issues started on s7...

 

[bespangeled]

From what Joss said, Sarah had issues with everything and everyone by the time season 7 rolled around. I never saw any reason to believe she had an issue with Marsters. It seems to me that any issue would be related to season 6 when they hated their relationship, but you can see them joking here.

No idea - just what I've read and seen.

 

[Snyder]

It's no secret that SMG and DB got very close - there are some who say that's why DB's first marriage failed. She was really upset when he left the show, so I think this has a lot more to do with DB than with Marsters..

yeah I know they had a story, but they are both married now and making this kind of comments about your ex is disrespectful toward your partner. Why does she feel the need to make them if not for some other reason? may be I'm too cynical and Machiavellian and I surely have no proof but for all the reasons I said I can't help feeling that she has a grudge toward him. Not that it matters though. I was just agreeing with someone about SMG acting feeling off on s7 and why I think so, but if I prefer Spuffy over Bangel it has nothing to do with the actors the chemistry the writers or whatever, it's about the story and the characters being more compelling and interesting imo